Classic Rocker John Cafferty Returns with a New Album after 37 Years — “Sound of Waves”

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Parent Category: Film and the Arts

Category: Interviews

Published on Thursday, 08 May 2025 20:00

Written by Brad Balfour

For many bands having a song in a film can boost one’s career. But for John Cafferty and his Beaver Brown band, they not only wrote and performed songs for the soundtrack to “Eddie And The Cruisers,” but they provided all the musical content performed by actors in the film. The music was a hit and established John Cafferty as a force to reckon with.

Nonetheless, Cafferty and band continued writing, recording and performing for years. After a string of records that came out in the ‘90s, he continued on without releasing anything new as an album.

On April 10, 2025, John Cafferty and his band released their first album in 37 years, “Sound of Waves,” a 13-song collection of original songs written by Cafferty. This milestone was celebrated with a media industry release party at the legendary Cutting Room in New York City. Radio DJs, music writers, influencers, and fans attended the SRO event. iHeart New York’s Q104.3 afternoon drive DJ Ken Dashow was the MC.

Cafferty and band achieved mainstream success in the ‘80s with the music recorded for the “Eddie and the Cruisers: Original Motion Picture Soundtrack.” A 1983 American musical drama film directed by Martin Davidson with the screenplay written by the director and Arlene Davidson, “Eddie and the Cruisers” was based on the novel by P. F. Kluge. A sequel “Eddie and the Cruisers II: Eddie Lives!” followed in 1989.

Music Supervisor Kenny Vance asked Davidson to describe his fictitious band and their music. Initially, Davidson said that the Cruisers sounded like Dion and the Belmonts but with elements of Jim Morrison and The Doors.

However, due to the fact that the Cruisers were essentially a Jersey bar band, Davidson thought of Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band. The filmmaker told Vance to find him a band that could produce music that contained elements of these groups. The director was getting close to rehearsals when Vance called and said that he had found the band — Providence, Rhode Island’s John Cafferty and the Beaver Brown Band.

When Davidson met them, he realized that they closely resembled the band described in the script, right down to a Cape Verdean saxophone player, whom he cast in the film. Initially, Cafferty was only hired to write a few songs, but he did such a good job of capturing the feeling of the ‘60s and ‘80s that Davidson asked him to score the entire film.

After successful screenings on HBO in 1984, the album suddenly climbed the charts, going quadruple platinum. The studio re-released the soundtrack in the fall of ’84. Nine months after the film was released in theaters, the main song , “On the Dark Side”, went to number one in the country on Billboard’s Mainstream, Rock, and Heatseeker charts; and #7 on the Billboard Hot 100 chart. Another single from the film, “Tender Years,” peaked at #31 on the Billboard Hot 100.

The album sold over three million copies and went on to become certified triple platinum by the RIAA. Their hit single “On the Dark Side” maintained the number one position on Billboard and HBO for five consecutive weeks.

The band saw further success when their 1985 follow-up album “Tough All Over” made the Top 40. “Voice of America’s Sons” was the featured theme song of Sylvester Stallone’s action movie “Cobra,” while Cafferty’s solo track “Heart’s on Fire” was featured in “Rocky IV.”

Over the years John would continue to place over 30 songs in major motion pictures, including “There’s Something About Mary” and “Dumb and Dumber To.”

Today, John Cafferty and the Beaver Brown Band continue to tour and bring their live shows to fans around the world. In 2012, they were inducted into the Rhode Island Music Hall Of Fame.

In order to reestablish his presence in the world at large, Cafferty spoke with the press about his re-emergence. In the course of this interview, Cafferty revealed his Irish roots and how he connected with this on a trip to Eire.

Q: How have you managed to maintain your love of rock and roll for this long and yet not put out an album for 37 years?

John Cafferty: We had a wonderful opportunity for a few years in the ‘80s to be able to make records and to be in sync with what was going on with both radio and MTV. And as you know, music sort of moves on. It evolves and revolves. Styles and trends change. When that happened with us in the late ‘80s, we just went back to what we’d been doing before. We were a band that had been together for like 10 plus years before we made records. We went back to being a band for many years after we made records. We never stopped. We never stopped playing; we just weren’t in the record business anymore.

Q: All this time, you’ve survived by touring and obviously doing things that ended up in albums, in movies?

John Cafferty: When we went back to playing after the hit records, it was a bit easier because we had songs people knew. We weren’t playing civic centers anymore, but we played small theaters, showcase clubs, doing what we knew how to do. Every Saturday night we’d be in a crowded room, watch the dance floor fill up and see smiles on the people’s faces.

Q: Your music has been in a number of movies, obviously with “Eddie and the Cruisers.” When showcasing your music, were you meeting the actors? Did you meet the director? How did that work?
 
John Cafferty: It was a double-edged sword. It got the music out there to the point where 40 years later the songs are still being played on radio. That’s a wonderful thing that happened, but it didn’t necessarily shine a spotlight on the band for any length of time.

Q: It led to people putting you in other movies. Movies sometimes have a longer shelf life than an album as a way to keep the cash coming in.

John Cafferty: It was a very unexpected surprise and turned into our career. We were a bar band extraordinaire. We were very good at what we did and still are. We have the history of rock and roll at our fingertips and that magic wand in our hands every Saturday night. That’s what we set out to do. 

I look over my shoulder at 74 and see a life of my choosing. I see days and nights spent doing what I wanted to do. The movie stuff was something that we never saw coming. It was just an unexpected surprise. It wasn’t anything that we pursued before “Eddie and the Cruisers.”

It was just that we’d had some success in a very unusual way. Not necessarily in the theaters, but on cable television when they played a film we provided music for. All of a sudden, we sold a million records from people watching it on television. Probably our little quirky footnote in the history of rock and roll was that we sold platinum records before they’re being played on HBO. To my knowledge, that didn’t happen before or it hadn’t happened to that extent at that particular point.

Q: It led you to other big films. That’s the craziest thing. It doesn’t always happen that way. You did “Rocky” and these other films.
 
John Cafferty: [chuckles] Sly was always wonderful to us. He was in a film called “The Lords of Flatbush” many years ago with Henry Winkler. You got Rocky and the Fonz before those characters were even created. The director of that film was Marty Davidson, who went on to direct “Eddie and the Cruisers”. 

Sly was aware of us, or at least of the project. When that film became a hit, especially the music, he was very happy with it. He was instrumental in finding a company to put out the soundtrack album. Somebody gives them a chance and they record a soundtrack. Their music comes out of the mouths of actors, but then goes on to triple platinum success and Top 10, number one records. You could write that story.

Q: What did you think of the story of “Eddie and the Cruisers?” 

John Cafferty: Marty made a very honest attempt at telling the story of a band. It wasn’t a big budget project, and he had a history of working with unknown talent, but talent nonetheless. The people who were in that movie went on to major successes, us being part of that.
 
I wasn’t really involved in the movie, so much as I was involved with the music. I didn’t really have a say in the film. I didn’t really have much input into it, other than every time Michael Pare opened his mouth on screen, my voice came out to the audience. I wish he had a guitar in his hand.

Q: Had you known the music producer/supervisor for the film, Kenny Vance, before the movie? Vance is in the movie.

John Cafferty: Kenny Vance went on to become one of my closest friends and one of my mentors in life. Not just for the music business, but how to become a man in this world. I always appreciated him. No, we didn’t know one another. I did know of him or his band anyways, because we were very steeped in the history of rock and roll. His band, Jay and the Americans, had just great songs and their producers were Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller — the famed producers and songwriting team. 

To have Kenny welcome us into a family tree that traces back to Lieber and Stoller is a big honor. He’s a guy you need to talk to. That guy has more stories than you can believe. He opened for The Beatles and the Stones. He was on Ed Sullivan. He lived in the whole rock and roll fantasy.

He just made a documentary called “Heart & Soul” that’s unbelievable. It’s about the Doo-Wop era and some of the people in it. It got picked up by PBS. It’ll bring a tear to your eye. It’s just unbelievable.

Q: In the beginning, you had that association with Bruce Springsteen (whose sound was the inspiration for Eddie) coming out of that same sort of Roots Rock experience.

John Cafferty: It’s not a bad association. It’s a good association.

Q: It’s a great association. Your songs work just as well as many songs that Bruce Springsteen has produced. Just as that same association was laid on a bunch of other writers, songwriters like Elliot Murphy. It’s a great school to be in, or a great crowd to be a part of.

John Cafferty: The fact that he was a friend and offered so much encouragement both in the early days and even in recent years. I mean, you’re talking about a one in a billion songwriter. The guy plays stadiums in front of people who know every word to every song that he’s written. 

He’s an immense talent. For him to come and sit in with us and be on stage with us and talk to me about songwriting, talking shop, talking old rock and roll records. What we liked about ’em and, “Hey, do you remember the words to this? You remember the chords to that? And the drum sound to this?” It’s so much fun. I always saw it as a wonderful thing for us.

Q: This new album carries on your legacy. The opening song is fabulous and it leads right into a lot of great stuff.

John Cafferty: I didn’t really realize that people would think of it as being New York and New Jersey. It was actually California that I was talking about. My wife and I were living out there in the early eighties and I wrote a song about the reawakening of wanting to dream or continue to dream: let’s dream like young lovers out on the Palisades. It was about that moment of my life, and I guess it’s a good thing that people would hear East Coast in it as well. But that was a song about the West Coast.

Q: Talk about the songs on the album, some of their origins. I think of you as a purely East Coast band and a real grassroots guy when you’re coming out of Rhode Island as opposed to say LA or New York. You have these LA connections, as well. So, tell me a little more about the album.

John Cafferty: About the LA connection, you are correct in assuming that we’re an East Coast, born and raised in rock and roll band. That’s absolutely true. But when we tried to get a record deal for many years, one of the reasons that we took the Eddie and the Cruisers job was to hopefully attract record company interest in what we were doing. After I wrote all those songs, I went out there. My wife was going to school out there. 

We weren’t married at the time; she was out there studying photography. I told the band that whatever’s going to happen with our career, it’s probably going to happen out there. I don’t think they’re coming to Rhode Island to look for us. I’m going to go out there and if someone likes the film, maybe they’ll like what we do. That ended up being the case, and my wife and I spent a few years out there at that point.

Q: How did that influence further songs? Where did some of the other songs come from? Did you reconnect your East Coast past, or were the songs about specific people? 
 
John Cafferty: Musically, the whole album is sort of a reflection of the music that we grew up with. It’s colored by much of the ‘50s and ’60s music that inspired us to put instruments in our hands. We wear our influences on our sleeves. There’s bits and pieces of, or colors, not necessarily musical ideas. But there are colors from that music, sounds from that music or production styles that pay homage to the music we grew up with. 

We come from a tradition of rock and roll based in R&B and blues, and that’s how that tradition was passed on. People heard it, they picked it up, put their spin on it and left the breadcrumbs so that the person next in line could hear what you did and then find what influenced you. 

The record is very much that, musically. We’ve been going for 37 years, or at least we haven’t recorded new music in 37 years. We played new music in the clubs, and in the concert halls we played new music. I’ve written new music over the years, but we haven’t recorded it. It’s just that we’ve been out of the record business, so to speak. 

I always thought I was going to write. I always thought I was going to record the songs that I had written in the interim. But when I sat down to do it, all these new songs came out. It was a reflection of how I feel now. When I look over my shoulder, I see a life spent on doing something of my choosing. 

I’m blessed to have had that choice. And I’ve thought about where that choice came from and the people who made the sacrifices for me to be able to have the life that I’ve lived. It starts with me writing a song called “Palisades.” It’s about the reawakening of that dream, of wanting to creatively share what I was thinking about.

There’s a story being told that’s not really told sequentially. It’s just bits and pieces of things. I’m 21 in one song, I’m 47 in another song, I’m 13 in another. And when I look over my shoulder, that’s what I see. I think of my life in bits and pieces. I don’t see straight lines, I see moments of reflection, and that’s what the record is.

Q: At least three of the songs were written in 2023. Were they any reflection of the Pandemic — written during the pandemic — or is this all in the last year?

John Cafferty: We’ve been working on the record for three years. We had a 50th anniversary that came about. We’re still blowing out the candles and celebrating. Right around that same time, we had a Greatest Hits record come out on Iconoclassic Records.

My friend Jeremy Holiday, who had worked for Sony for many years, was familiar with our career. He called and asked me if I wanted to put a greatest hits record out. Our career is so entangled with films and different record companies and whatever. 

I didn’t think that it was possible, but he did. He put together a package that just said, “Here’s a band and these songs. These are the best of what they did.” He was able to put together a greatest hits package that doesn’t so much reflect on how the songs were used. They were reflecting that this is the work of a songwriter and his band. 

That was wonderful because that’s how we view it when we play these songs at night. I don’t think about …. well, this song was in “Eddie and the Cruisers” and this song was in “Something About Mary” and this song was in “Rocky.” I just think of it as: they’re all our songs that I wrote and were recorded by my band.

Q: In light of this association with movies, have you gotten to meet some of the actors either before, during, or after? Stallone is someone you’re friends with.
  
John Cafferty: I know the Farrelly brothers who are directors and writers; they’re Rhode Island guys. We’ve had a few songs in their films. They’ve been very kind to us over the years by putting our songs in there. They used to come, and rumor has it, sneak into the clubs when they were young and follow my band around. 

I can’t really say that I know a lot of the actors that were in the films that we did. I got a call a couple years ago, the guy looked up my phone and said, “Sylvester Stallone.” I said, “This can’t be real.” I picked it up and he said he was checking on my schedule. He saw that I was playing down in Atlantic City and that his brother, Frank, was playing down there at the same time. He wanted to know if I wanted to open the show for him at the Hard Rock Casino. They would film it for the “Families Stallone” show that they have on Paramount. 

We went out to dinner with those guys and hung out and had a ball. It was so fun. we’re still a Rhode Island band, so I’m not really involved with Hollywood on a day-to-day basis. Once in a while, I’ll get a call looking for something that I’ve done that they wanted to use in a film.

Q: You left LA and came back to Rhode Island. Have you ever come back to New York?

John Cafferty: We wanted to raise a family, and do it back here on the East Coast where our families were. We had a lot of fun living out in California for a brief time. And then we wanted to come home and bring up a family on the East Coast. We’ve had a wonderful life doing that. I got to be a little league coach during the week. Got to be a rock and roll star on the weekends. It was tremendous.

Q:  You’ve been with your wife all along. How many kids do you have? They’re probably adults now.

John Cafferty: It seems like more, but there’s just two of them. I have two sons. They both have their degrees from the University of Rhode Island in business. My oldest son, Shane, is in Hollywood. He’s a comedic actor and improv guy working with the UCB –– Upright Citizens Brigade. My youngest son, Jackson, is a great songwriter about to get signed to a record deal and you’ll probably be talking to him sooner than later. They’re both so talented, and I’m so happy that they’ve found a creative life.

Q: When you moved back to Rhode Island, was it Providence you’re in? Or did you go more out in the country?

Cafferty: It’s a pretty small place. You’re only a half hour from everything. So we’re down at the beach, the “Ocean State,” so we headed south. We’re down at the beach down by the University of Rhode Island. It’s very much a college town and a beach community. It’s wonderful down here.

Q:  The boardwalk is not so far away, like the Palisades. Is there a boardwalk for you?

Cafferty: I’m a half a mile from the ocean as the seagull flies, but yeah, it’s really beautiful here. I wouldn’t come in February, but other than that, it’s beautiful.

Q: Talk about the night of your recent The Cutting Room show where you premiered the album.

John Cafferty: Oh man, it was a very fun night. I have a great friend of mine, Tom Cuddy, who I knew when he was running Pro-FM here in Providence. He stayed in touch with me all these years and came to see me play up at Daryl Hall’s place in Pauling, New York. He heard about the greatest hits record coming out and came to touch base with us.
 
I told him that we were working on a new album and he said, “When you make the new record, we’ve got to have a night in New York to release it.” He followed through with that and put together this wonderful night at The Cutting Room. We just had so many friends and guys from the New York radio, and it was just unbelievable.

Q: Now that you’ve established your presence in New York, you’re going to come back and have a concert just so I can see you live.

John Cafferty: Steve Walter, the guy who owns The Cutting Room, said we have an open invitation. We’re going to take him up on it. It was a great spot. We haven’t played in the City in a long time. The last time I played in the City I was playing with South Side Johnny at Gary, US Bond’s birthday party at BB King’s. We went down and sang a few songs with Gary.

It’s not too big, it’s not too small. Steve, the guy who owns it, is a musician himself. He’s a Berkeley-educated guitar player. We had him up on stage with us. He plays his ass off. It was a very, very fun night.

Q: The next time you come, you get some of the classic people that you’ve worked with over the years. Get Kenny Vance in town.

John Cafferty: I was talking to him and he just played at Mohegan Sun. He did a thing over there with … I’m trying to think. I think Joey D was there, too. He does Doo-wop revival packages that he gets involved with. I know he did that with Bowser for quite a few years, and they were great shows. I always go to see it, but I couldn’t go because he was there last week.

Q: You’ve always been John Cafferty and the Beaver Brown Band, but actually the Beaver Brown Band is really, basically you. It’s changed and evolved obviously for sad reasons that some of your original band mates have passed. Why did you maintain the Beaver Brown element and not just be John Cafferty?

John Cafferty: We’re very much a team, a family unit. We still have three of the original guys and myself. There’s Gary Gramolini, our guitar player who produced a record with me and Michael Antunes, who’s a sax player extraordinaire, was actually the sax player in “Eddie and the Cruisers.” He was in the film.

The guys who came in to keep the thing going with us, they’re guys that we’ve known for many, many years. It’s a small community of musicians here in Rhode Island and Southern Massachusetts, and we just kept it going.

Q: Now that you’ve kept it going and you’re on a roll and performing, do you see another album coming up in the near future? You’re not going to wait for another 37 years, in other words?

John Cafferty: To be honest with you, I didn’t even think that we were going to make this record. I had a bunch of songs before this record that I thought I was going to record but didn’t. We still had that, and I had a bunch of the songs that didn’t make the record. Not because they weren’t good enough –– they were every bit as good as the songs that came out –– but there just wasn’t room on the record. The record is so long, an hour and 10 minutes as it is. I didn’t want to make it longer. This album went through a lot of molding and shaping. 

There were different versions of it, and there were newer songs that I’ve written since I started mixing this record. We put a period at the end of the sentence and said, “Okay, this is the record.” I ended up breaking the record into chapters, little three-song chapters.

There’s four three-song chapters in it, and the songs are grouped together either musically or thematically. At the very end of the record is actually the prologue, which is a story about how I came to discover music in the first place as a kid. It found a very beautiful home at the end of the record.

Q: What was the first record you heard? And what was the first record that made you want to be making records?

John Cafferty: My parents grew up in the ’30s and ‘40s. They were very much radio people. Their entertainment came from a radio, so there was always a radio on wherever I was, whether it was in the kitchen or in the car or on the beach. There was always music in the air. I was drawn to it. I remember walking by my cousin Allen’s beach house — he’s a few years older than me — I had the baseball bat on my shoulder with the gloves sticking off the handle by his house. He was sitting on his porch with a suitcase, but it was a record player. He had a stack of 45s and he was playing “Rebel Rouser” by Duane Eddy. 

The sound of that, the echo on the guitar and the sound of the drums and saxophone coming in to bring the excitement to it: it stopped me in my tracks. I didn’t really know why. I was a kid and got interested in playing the guitar, like a lot of musicians my age.

We went to the movie theater one day and saw the look on the faces of those guys from Liverpool and said, “Boy, does that look like fun?” [chuckles] Next thing I knew, me and my cousin Stevie were starting the band. We’re both in our 70s now and still going strong at it.

Q:  Do you remember the first record you bought?

John Cafferty: Boy, it might have been “Heartbreak Hotel” –– something like that. My mom really liked Elvis. She used to take me grocery shopping and I didn’t ask for anything. At the end of the cash register where you checked out, they had a wall with these spools on it, and there were 45s hanging on the spools. If I didn’t ask for anything, she would buy me a record. It was like the era of Elvis, he was making records and the Everly Brothers.

Those guys were part of the big bang of rock and roll. When we played at The Cutting Room, my wife and I took a walk and ended up out by the Brill Building [it housed offices and studios where some of the most popular American songs were written and was the center of the music industry that dominated in the early 1960s]. I had her take my picture in front of the Brill building. It seemed like in every interview I was doing, I was talking about how much I loved the music that came out in that era. That was the hotbed of it, right there in that building. All that magic that came out of there.

Q:  Of all the songs on the new record, which one do you think of as the most personal record and which one do you think of as sort of the potential hit?

John Cafferty: The most accessible song as a single would be “Day in the Sun,” because that song just sounds like it’s already on the radio. But I’m not really sure. I know that when people hear it, they’re singing it back to you with big smiles on their faces and jumping up onto the dance floor. “Day in the Sun” would be the single.

There’s a song called “Blue Moonlight Drive” that’s one of the most beautiful records that we ever made — a throwback to “Pet Sounds” in a way. Not that my voice sounds like the Beach Boys, but just the sort of the sparseness in the romanticism of it. I really liked that one. Personally, the title track (“Sound of Waves”) means a lot to me and my family. It’s pretty heartfelt.

Q: “Palisades” is a great rock and roll, kick-out-the-jams kind of start of the album. I thought that was fabulous. That worked for me.

Cafferty: That song is very welcoming. It’s got that feeling to it that it seemed like an obvious choice to open the record because it’s a very welcoming song. I mean, there’s a lot of our influences in there of R&B and guys who were influenced by songwriters that I look up to –– like Van Morrison, Jackson Browne, Bruce Springsteen. 

It’s about reawakening the feeling of wanting to recapture a spirit that we had in the days of old when the world was bright, shiny and new. It’s saying that I want to dream again of my life’s partner. Let’s dream just like young lovers out on the Palisades. I’m thinking I’m driving down or driving up the Pacific Coast Highway, with the top down in my Mustang and with my beautiful bride by my side.

Q:  Did you have a Mustang?

Cafferty: I did. I’m from Rhode Island. I wasn’t going to be out in California without being able to put the top down. I froze my ass off up here in Rhode Island. To be able to get out there and put the top down in February was pretty fun.

Q:  What is your background? Irish?

John Cafferty: Irish and French Canadian.

Q: Do you know where your family is from in Ireland?

John Cafferty: They’re from Cork, but my wife is full Italian. We grew up in a community where it’s around here. There’s a lot of mills and small towns that serviced those mills. A lot of the immigrants came over and met each other across the machines and the pews of the churches and the schools. A lot of those cultures intermingled and grew up with beautiful traditions and great food.

Q: Your family has a Catholic background. The kids have gone to a Catholic school –– that kind of thing, or not?

Cafferty: My kids didn’t, but I grew up in Catholic schools. My cousin Betty organized a trip for about 30 of us. We went over there, a bunch of cousins and took a little tour of Southern Ireland. It was so wonderful. I found myself drawn to the pubs. Not so much for the Guinness, although that was wonderful, but for the sound of the pubs.

I would find myself listening. It wasn’t the big ballads that I was listening for. It was the sound of the instrumentation, the reels that they would play. You would go into one bar and the guy would be playing piano with a guy who would be playing guitar. Another guy was playing a banjo and somebody had a fiddle and somebody had a flute. 

It was just the sound of it all. It was unbelievable. I was so drawn to it. There’s a song on our record called “The Hearts of the Mighty.” It has a bit of that in there, this big storytelling ballad. I don’t mean a slow song by the word “ballad.” I mean a storytelling song. 

A lot of the album “Sound of Waves” comes from that idea. It was just a big, long story of where my life came from. And it’s a story about the courage that people had in order to leave everything they knew and everyone they loved so they could get on a boat and follow a dream and a story.

They just took the boat into the setting sun and followed it to see where it would lead. There was no internet back then. It was just based on stories of a promise, or stories of a dream that they would hear. And they left their countries and came over here.

A Press Conference with Ryan Coogler and Key Cast Members of His Period Horror Film, “Sinners”

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Parent Category: Film and the Arts

Category: Interviews

Published on Monday, 28 April 2025 13:34

Written by Brad Balfour

Film: Sinners
Director: Ryan Coogler
Cast: Michael B. Jordan, Delroy Lindo, Miles Caton, Jack O’Connell, Li Jun Li, Jayme Lawson, Hailee Steinfeld, Wunmi Ellison, Omar Benson Miller, Lola Kirke

While continuing with the “Creed” and “Black Panther” franchises, director/writer Ryan Coogler and star Michael B. Jordan’s latest team-up surfaced when it was reported that the duo were working on a mysterious new project that was showcased to executives and buyers under a cone of silence.

Well, that cone has long disappeared. Now, their latest project, the 2025 “Sinners” is finished. This American period piece written, produced, and directed by Ryan Coogler is a supernatural horror film set in the 1930s South, Louisiana to be specific. Starring Jordan in the dual role of twin brothers Smoke and Stack, they return to their hometown but are faced with a greater evil than their usual criminal behavior.

Trying to leave their troubled lives behind, the twins return to their hometown to start again, only to discover that an vampires are waiting to welcome them back. There are many layers to this film and what seems to be a variation on vampires. It addresses lots of cultural conflicts — between high and low classes, blacks and the Irish and trying to make one’s fortune within the context of a Post Civil War South.

A master of genre film, Coogler (“Black Panther,” “Creed”) began developing this project through his Proximity Media production company. In January 2024, when Jordan was cast. Warner Bros. Pictures acquired distribution rights following a bidding war. Casting took place in April, ahead of the start of filming that month. Filming wrapped in July 2024.

The bloody features also stars Hailee Steinfeld, Miles Caton, Jack O’Connell, Wunmi Mosaku, Jayme Lawson, Omar Benson Miller, Li Jun Li, and Delroy Lindo.

“Sinners” is scheduled to be released in the United States on April 18, 2025. In advance of that date, this online press conference took place featuring Coogler, Jordan and the crucial cast listed above.

Q: From “Fruitvale Station” to now, you two — Ryan and Mr. Michael B. Jordan — have been a dynamic duo. It’s been an incredible collaboration. Talk about the shorthand that you’ve developed through these projects to now? 

Michael B. Jordan: My shorthand has [done] nothing but gotten stronger over the years –– especially with this one, being the first movie that I’ve done since I directed my first film. I just have a deeper sense of empathy for what Ryan goes through on a day-to-day basis.

All the hats that he must wear, and the amount of places he has to be at the same time, especially on this one, [allowed] me to be an extra set of eyes for him and help where I could, anticipating his movements or needs. This allowed us to maybe get a little bit more done. Especially when time is always an issue on set, in general. There’s just this kind of understanding. I can’t really explain the non-verbal communication that we have, only that it’s gotten better over the years. 

Q: Ryan, as somebody who has seen him before he directed a film, did you have a moment where you were like, “See? I told you that. Now you know.” 

Ryan Coogler: You mean like, “See how difficult filmmaking is?”

Q: It’s not about seeing how difficult filmmaking is. More like, it’s because he’s dealt with it on his side, now he has empathy [for what it is you do.] 

Ryan Coogler: I worked as his producer on “Creed III.” There were a lot of times where I would never rub it in his face like that, but he would say, “Whoa, man, I see what you’re doing.” The reality is, man, our jobs are so different. Even when he was directing “Creed III,” he was acting in that movie. He was having to go get punched in the face and then go look and check to see how he did. Then he had to go back and get punched again. 

I’m not on screen when I’m directing. I’m behind the camera. Mike is an empathetic guy. He grew up on film and television sets. What I like the most about working with him is his incredible work ethic, but he’s also a very kind and family-oriented person. When you’re number one on the call sheet –– and in this case, he was 1A and 1B –– I guess you have to like that culture. Oftentimes it’s going to come from there and it trickles down.

People are watching how the lead actor communicates with the PA, with the assistant, the AD, with the camera operator, with the sound. Do they like to let the sound person mic them? Do they want to complain? You know, all these things, man. He’s such an incredible sport and just moves. Kindness is the default. That’s just infectious on the set, in terms of establishing the tone that everybody’s going to work with. It’s unacceptable to yell at a PA if Mike has ever done that. Mike has [never] raised his voice. You follow me? 

Michael B. Jordan: That’s right. 

Ryan Coogler: In an industry where it can get very high stress, it can get very toxic, it’s great to have somebody who understands the value of keeping it loving and respectful. That’s what I like about Mike the most. The other piece is, he wants to challenge himself constantly. What was great was, like, I got that with every cast member.

Everybody who went through the works and [when they] stepped on set, they were trying to be better than they were in their last movie. I believe that they’re going to be better than they were in this movie in their next one. That’s the type of people we hired. That culture starts with Mike. But I was fortunate enough that everybody came with that. I was very happy with that.

Q: Miles, you just had one of the greatest film school type experiences. This is sort of your kickoff. Tell us about your journey from when you first got approached about the project … to now, having the premiere in New York. The world is finally getting to see it. 

Miles Caton: I started off when I was 16 years old. I got the opportunity to sing background for H.E.R. We began a tour all over the world. We opened up for Coldplay. Towards the end of that tour, I got a call one day saying, “Little bro, there was somebody in the crowd that heard you sing and they wanted you to audition for this role.” I took that and ran with it. I sent in a self-taped audition. After that, I got a call back. Then they sent like a couple sides. It was like a kid, a young kid, just playing the guitar. I did that and sent it off. 

The next thing I knew, I went to L.A. to do an audition. I got to meet Mike and Ryan, along with a couple other people. From there, I got to talk with them about the role and just put my best foot forward. After that, I was able to really learn from them. Just being on this project, I got to grow so much. Every day was a learning experience, from the time I got on set to the end. I really did push myself daily to be better. Being around actors at this level, they all showed me so much love. To be here at this moment, I feel super blessed.

Q: Now Jack, your character essentially starts a lot of this ruckus. He just sees who Miles’s character is and how he has to respond to it. You’re very thoughtful about your projects and the things you like to do. Did you really think of Nick as a villain? He’s clearly enjoying himself. He’s enjoying all of this destruction. How did you approach him and all the layers that I think were present in the character? 

Jack O’Connell as Remmick

Jack O’Connell: Oh, yeah, man. Listen, I think “villain” is a fair description. [panelists all chuckle] 

Q: Maybe he doesn’t think he’s a villain, though. 

Jack O’Connell: No, definitely not. Listen, there’s probably an easier way of doing things. In the film, we do it the hard way for Remmick. he’s all about fellowship and love. All he wants is just to bite you on your neck and then that’s everlasting love. Just a little bite. He’s constantly saying, “I promise I won’t hurt you. [laughter] It’s the easy way.” 

We all end up going the hard way. But listen, there’s a real richness, a real depth to Ryan’s writing. What we were striving towards wasn’t superficial. It was grounded in something that’s rooted in history. That to me was the main thing I was loving to latch on to, which was the cultural richness that our characters were representing in their individual ways. 

I had to read and read and read before I could believe my eyes. It’s not often you get a script from America that incorporates traditional Irish music — not just popular Irish music, but the real deal, the genuine stuff. I had to read that page six or seven times before it sank in — where “The Rocky Road to Dublin” is being sung by Remmick and other vampires. As you can imagine, that was quite surreal.

I think character-wise, he purports to be, who knows, maybe a thousand years old. All I’ve got to go on is a speech in the movie, and he refers to Ireland being colonized for the first time. That’s at least 600 years ago. So, as you can imagine, there are a lot of gaps to fill — there’s a lot of room and opportunity to create and invent. But it’s rooted in history and something factual, as well as something I find personally very, very interesting. So, to create this character that is supernatural, yet also natural, too — there’s a realism to it. It’s not outlandish beyond all conception.

To do that was just wildly thrilling. I think with him being around for as long as he says he’s been around, there comes a certain complexity with his character, his personality, and with what he’s capable of. He’s able to read people and he’s got a different take on mortality. So, there was all of that wiggle room to have a lot of fun with. Ryan and I would discuss this a lot, and I had so much joy during those talks.

Alright, he’s trying to kill them and devour their blood, but in doing so, he’s trying to offer them eternal life and a promise of enlightenment. So, he’s on this mission and that’s how I understood him to be. He’s kind of got a cause.

Q: And Remmick sings.

Jack O’Connell: We were working with the best of the best, it feels like. Look, I’m not a singer. I fool around on the guitar a bit, but I wouldn’t describe myself as a musician. We had Ludwig Göransson and Serena Göransson, just experts at what they do with music within film. So that was fully legit. We were in proper recording studios with the proper equipment.

There was also a bit of a jig that I had to do for the role. We got set up with Aakomon Hasani Jones, and I mean, he’s worked with Usher. He’s top of his game for dance choreography. There were days I just felt like Beyoncé. I was going to work; I was doing my music recording in the morning and then I was going to rehearse a dance. I just felt like a massive pop star. Ryan laid it out in such a way where we felt welcome. He inspires confidence. He’s really wonderful with his cast and you can really get into it with him. Nothing but good things to say about Mr. Coogler.

Q: You do more than just take a bite in this one. There’s more things that were asked of your character…. But now, on to Mr. Delroy Lindo. Sir, we’re very familiar with your filmography. It’s been a minute since you had to get so physical and fiery in a role. Talk about that scene in the juke joint. What was it like when Ryan tells you, “OK, you’re not just going to be playing in this one. You’re going to be getting physical with it.”

Delroy: First of all, we have such a wonderful team who work on the fights. Ryan has a wonderful team that he puts all to the actors’ disposal. Earlier I talked about the fact that when I was younger, I did dance class and fighting is like that on film and in the theater. It’s like choreography, right? It’s choreographed. On some level, the more violent the fights were, the more critically important it was to be choreographed to a T. These fights were … I came to the project a little late because I was working on something else. But when I arrived in New Orleans, they were already in the thick of building the moves in the fight. 

The very first fight rehearsal I went to, the fight captain showed me what they were working on and showed me very specifically: “OK, this is how you will slot in.” We just worked very methodically to achieve that. By the time we got on camera to shoot those scenes, we all knew exactly what we were doing, and what our responsibilities were. The other thing I would say really quickly: there was an openness which trickled down from Ryan and from Mike in terms of the generosity shown to all of the actors. So, if something was presented to me, there were a couple of things presented to me in the fight scenes where I said, “Hmm … can I maybe try this?” Absolutely! There was always space to incorporate what felt more organic for me as an actor. 

Q: When you watch the film, you can tell that, of course. Ryan is writing another story that tells an aspect of the black experience. But, he always makes sure that there’s other cultures [as well]. Whenever he does it, he treats it with the same detail, attention and reverence. Li Jun Li, your character is a perfect example of that. In the fashion and in some of the moments where, again, that happened, the film alludes to other parts of the culture. Talk about how you were able to craft your character … not just to look at the time, but also of her culture. 

Li Jun Li: I was not aware of the Chinese-American community in the Mississippi Delta. I had no idea about them. All I knew was that when I was presented with the sides during my audition process, I had no other information other than the fact that she was Chinese-American with a very thick, deep Southern accent, which really piqued my interest. Also, obviously, because it was Ryan’s project as well. When we dived into the research, it was fascinating. They were such a crucial part of the world at the time. They were the only people who were able to open up grocery stores specifically for the black and white communities. But they also endured a lot of prejudice themselves. 

In a documentary made by a filmmaker named Dolly Li, she mentioned a couple of people. One of the women’s names was Freida Quon, who we used for our dialect inspiration. She always said that as long as we stayed in our lanes, we’d be fine. Trouble would start if we crossed over. I just love how fascinating it was, how deeply embedded they were in the culture, and how you would never think that a person who looks like me would speak that way. Yet they did. They also made Southern-style Chinese food and built their own community. It was really a gift to learn about this.

Q: Although this is a genre story, with lots of blood, action and some incredible music at the heart of it, one thing that’s most important about this is that there’s these two really intense love stories for Wunmi and Hailee. Talk about the fact that, yes, you were in love with these two men, Smoke and Stack. Ryan does this with the backdrop of the grandest part of the picturesque scenery with Louisiana wildlife. Talk about how being in that environment made you more invested in these characters, these stories and the realism. Wunmi, can you start with that? 

Wunmi Mosaku: Annie’s shop, her home is in this picturesque environment with these massive, shaded oaks. And what’s the other tree with the one in Louisiana with the moss? It’s so beautiful and romantic and it really adds to the magic of their relationship, their love. It kind of elevates it. I love how, in the scene when we see Annie and Smoke for the first time, is it dandelions you’ve got blowing behind Smoke? 

Ryan: It’s just willow. 

Wunmi Mosaku: It’s so beautiful. the whole shop itself. I wish we could see the whole thing. [Production Designer] Hannah Beachler did such an amazing job.

Ryan: Yeah, she did.

Wunmi: There’s like smoke coming up through the floorboards and these little cards hanging from the ceiling. There’s candles burning in the background. You can’t see all of this. There are spiderwebs on these spell books. These are real spiders. It’s not even set design. It just felt really magical. It felt like their home. When he comes into the store, he knows where to pick his pipe from. He knows that time has stood still for her and everything is as it was. 

I really loved their environment. It felt like it really added to the scene. It added to our intimacy, our connection. Then, having the grave right there. Knowing when Annie says, I don’t need any of the money because I’m not going anywhere else. That is her anchor. That is her. Her heart is right there in the ground. Right there in front of her.

Q: Hailee, you also had to film this all at night. Your character, for the journey that she goes on, that probably added to what you were “heightening” up towards the final parts.

Hailee: It all plays a part, for sure. Quickly, though, on what Wunmi is talking about…. That was one set I wish I’d gotten to see in person. I had heard about it and seeing it in the movie, the thought of there being more is…. What you see is so spectacular. In the note about him knowing where the pipe is and where to go and that being your home, I think the nights [we spent shooting] were crazy. A lot of the nights took place inside the juke, too. We would go in and it would be light. We’d come out and it’d be light again. 

What I love so much about the juke for Mary was that even though it was a new place to her, it was home. There were so many elements within it that were created, that were brought to life and were home. The food, the people, and most importantly, the music. Just the way, the sort of layout, where you’d have Smoke and Stacks sort of up above. Annie in her corner. The stage. 

Mary was just moving through and feeling this sense of familiarity, having never been there before because of who was around her. I love that so much about this character and how she falls into this story, because she’s in a place of not knowing whether or not she….  I guess to an outsider, not so much herself. An outsider may not believe that she belongs in that space, but she does. She knows that and she feels it. 

Being in that juke, on that stage, even in our exterior location — looking at the structure that was built — it was like it became our home. It became Mary’s home. It became her connection to her mother and her past that she’d been away from for so long. Living a very, very different life that we didn’t necessarily see, but we could only imagine how beautiful it might have been or looked. Or how different it might have looked. 

It wasn’t what she wanted. This was home. I loved walking in there and hearing everyone’s shoes sort of creak on the wood and the chairs that we see a little bit in the movie of the juke coming together. It’s just like you wonder where it all came from and how they got it all together. It was all these people that were in there that made it happen, that brought it together. We had just the most incredible team, some of whom you mentioned, bring this to life and make this feel like a safe space that we could go home to.

Q: Jamie and Omar, Ryan brings something to his sets that is very unique. There’s a vibe, an energy that he brings to all of his projects that’s infectious. It also really stimulates collaboration and creativity.  Talk about what that vibe is, if you could describe it, Omar.

Omar Benson Miller: I’ve been doing this for a good amount of time now. I’ve been blessed to work for a long time. Ryan runs the most egalitarian set I have ever been on, and I say that in the most complimentary kind of way. Once we got to set, once everybody came out of the trailers, everybody was equal. For somebody who’s had an underdog element to his whole career, I value that so much. To me, that was something I had when leaving the set: always being welcome to return to it and being a part of it, I looked forward to returning to it. We’re all being treated equally. Ryan knows everybody’s first name. It’s 200-some people. Ryan’s calling people out. It’s stuff like that. It was very, very, very impressive.

Jayme Lawson: This is, hands down, my favorite experience. It felt like we could bring our stories with us, as he shared his with us. It made for a collaboration where –– I think, I can speak for a lot of us –– we found a level of freedom that oftentimes you don’t get to tap into. Because you’re being led by somebody that has so much faith in you and trust in you with his brainchild. At no point did he ever feel so precious about it. It was a gift that he was willing to share. 

Like Omar said, every day, I would show up when I didn’t have to be at work. I don’t know anybody else that would want to do that but to be able to watch Ryan work, I had to [be there]. I wanted to be in that room at all times. I am forever grateful for that.

Denis Villeneuve, Co-writer, Producer, Director of “Dune: Part Two” Waxes Eloquently About His Sprawling Creation

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Parent Category: Film and the Arts

Category: Interviews

Published on Friday, 28 February 2025 09:26

Written by Brad Balfour

Photo by Brad Balfour

In light of the climate change events affecting humanity lately — from intense wildfires in Los Angeles to the shock snowfalls in the South to the sudden deep freeze on the East Coast — the literary Dune series and its various cinematic equivalents are more relevant than ever.

The late science fiction author Frank Herbert’s original tome, “Dune,” focused on control of the desert planet Arrakis, (also known as Dune), which is the only source of the all-important spice melange. The most valuable commodity in the known universe, the spice not only makes safe and reliable interstellar travel possible, but also prolongs life, protects against disease and is used to enhance the abilities of the Bene Gesserit, the all-powerful religious group of women who secretly seek to control the direction humanity takes.

The potential financial gains for House Atreides, which now controls Dune (it had previously been in the hands of the malevolent House Harkonnen) are mitigated by the fact that mining melange from the desert surface of Arrakis is an expensive and hazardous undertaking, thanks to the treacherous environment and constant threat of giant sandworms that protect the spice.

And that means that underlying the Dune saga are many complex questions of survival in the extreme environmental conditions of a desert planet. The Fremen, the indigenous people who inhabit the planet, follow a messianic religion which believes an all-powerful leader will come and restore the planet to its original oceanic condition.

Now in theaters and under scrutiny for awards including the Oscars, 2024’s “Dune: Part Two” is the sequel to 2021’s “Dune,” director Denis Villeneuve’s adaptation of Herbert’s 1965 novel. [As a side note, the late director David Lynch’s 1984 version of “Dune” — much maligned in its day — is is now finally get re-released in theaters in a series of upcoming special screenings].

As directed by Villeneuve — who co-wrote the screenplay with Jon Spaihts — the lengthy film follows Paul Atreides (heir to House Atreides) [Timothée Chalamet] as he unites with the Fremen people to wage war against House Harkonnen and the emperor. In the process, he rises up to become the Kwisatz Haderach, the Messiah of Dune/Arrakis.

Besides Chalamet, Zendaya, Rebecca Ferguson, Josh Brolin, Stellan Skarsgård, Dave Bautista, Charlotte Rampling, and Javier Bardem reprise their roles from the first film, with Austin Butler, Florence Pugh, Christopher Walken, and Léa Seydoux joining the cast.

Canadian filmmaker Villeneuve has received seven Canadian Screen Awards as well as nominations for three Academy Awards, five BAFTA Awards, and two Golden Globe Awards. Villeneuve’s films have grossed more than $1.8 billion worldwide.

Born October 3, 1967, this Quebec native began his career directing four French-language dramas, the last of these gained him international prominence and earned a nomination for the Academy Award for Best International Feature Film. He expanded to English-language films by directing the thrillers Prisoners (2013), Enemy (2013), and Sicario (2015).

But Villeneuve gained wider recognition for directing science fiction films starting with Arrival (2016) which earned him a nomination for the Academy Award for Best Director. This was followed by Blade Runner 2049 (2017) — critically lauded but financially unsuccessful. Then he turned to the Dune films. Both were critically and commercially successful, with the former earning him Academy Award nominations for Best Adapted Screenplay and Best Picture.

The following discussion was culled from a Q&A held after the film was screening recently.

Q: You’ve concluded your adaptation of Frank Herbert’s original novel. As you look back at both of these films, what’s something that you learned making “Dune: Part One” that was instrumental in the way that you approached making “Dune: Part Two?”

Denis Villeneuve: Everything was instrumental, but I kept joking with my film crew that Part One was like a massive rehearsal to do “Dune: Part Two.” When we started the process, we felt confident. We knew the alphabet, the world, the romance was being defined, everything. But [“Dune: Part Two”] was a much more ambitious project. It was a beast. 

There were a lot of challenges and I really pushed my crew. It’s interesting to be a great pioneer about how everything we had to develop — it was a massive challenge. I stuck to the idea that I wanted to shoot with natural light, which is not in the real desert and was not easy for the crew.

Q: Let’s go to the desert and talk about sand, not necessarily how much sand you had in your shoes at the end of them getting banged — though surely it was a substantial amount. You shot “Dune: Part Two” primarily in the deserts of Abu Dhabi. Talk about what you learned about sand, what was something unexpected that you discovered about it, both in staging the big sequences, but also with the very personal, intimate sequences, not just on sand, but within the desert landscape?

Denis Villeneuve: At first, I discovered that I was out of shape. No, but it’s exhausting to work in those conditions, and it’s like, to state the obvious, we were shooting in a real environment.

There was a certain period of time, specifically on Part Two [that we had to shoot]. For Part One, we had access to shade, but with Part Two, we spent weeks in the deep desert, and there’s a part of the day, two hours between 11:30 and 1:30, where your brain starts to boil like a bowl of soup. Everybody becomes a bit stupid, including myself and the crew. I knew at that time that I had to make sure that we had the right amount of water, not to be so ambitious at this time, because it was too warm.

Shooting in the sand is like shooting in the snow. You have to deal with ridiculous challenges, like footsteps, it required a lot of discipline within the crew, because the way we shot it, we began using natural light, which meant that we had to choose a specific spot in the desert that was perfect for certain close-ups. 

And for the wide shots, we chose another set of dunes according to the sun positions, and to make sure that those would stay pristine. We had to own the desert. Technically, we had to make sure that the crew respected [the conditions] — and those are huge crews. If you have more and more people to take care of, it becomes like a little army.

The shooting of Part Two was different from Part One, in that there were more action scenes in the desert. In order to maximize our schedule, we used a device, a software, that was great, because it was capturing all the environments virtually, like the opening sequence, The reality happens in maybe 16 different locations. Because we do a shot, and then do the reverse, we have to have the right sun position. We have to move the whole crew to a different spot, to have the perfect timing for it.

On November 3rd, at 9:45, if you want to put Rebecca Ferguson [playing Lady Jessica, Paul’s mother] with a rock smashing at Arrakis, we had to be there at 9:45 to have the perfect sun position. All the schedules were designed this way, I thought it was interesting to see that the computer we were using print like that, the sun patterns. It made our shoot an incredible puzzle for my first AD, but very efficient for cinematography.

Q: Towards the end of the year, a lot of people were sharing their favorite shots from the film on social media. Most of the shots were from Part Two, but there was one shot in particular, a lot of people kept sharing, the shot of the Harkonnen soldiers, walking off the cliff and floating. You have this like deep burnt red behind them. How did you execute a shot like that?

Denis Villeneuve: The idea in the book is this idea that you might be master of gravity, that they can then use a suspensor system, for lighting, or for vehicles, or also for, you can have portable postman system that allows you to defy gravity, but there’s no mention of how to move with those systems. I love the idea that like in dreams, you fly in scuba diving, the whole idea was to do scuba diving in the desert, defying gravity, and those are images came as I was writing the screenplay, and it was something exciting about it for me.

It reminded me of the movies I loved from the ’70s, the old sci-fi movies, and the way to do this was to do it as much as possible on camera. We had an immersive, fantastic stunt coordinator that created those rigs, with wire rigs, where we were actually having stunts flying on cliffs, with those, and the rest is a bit of CGI, but it’s quite, I was quite excited by the result of it. 

It captured that idea of strangeness that I was looking for, that you feel you are with an alien technology. Most importantly, I was in love with the idea that we feel that the Harkonnen soldiers are foreigners, alien to this world. The Harkonnens don’t adapt, they just colonize, but never adapt to the environment where they are. That's their main weakness, and I tried to express that in this first sequence.

Q: You spoke a bit about sunlight, the way you used light, not just on Arrakis, but also with the black sun of the Harkonnens. Did you have a general approach? With the opening sequence, it felt like it was at sunset. Then you had that big stage sequence where they’re fighting the [spice mining] machine. They’re running underneath the shadows of the wings coming down from the ship. Did you know, as you were writing [this sequence], what time of day you wanted these to be shot? What was your general approach?

Denis Villeneuve: Light is, of course, our ally in naturalism, and our ally in, if we had shot the whole movie at noon, it would have been like a blend. I was trying to create contrast. I was trying to create a dynamic contrast in the movie with a color palette of different time of day, different than the movie, with an eclipse, something unexpected that will shake the audience right at the beginning, aesthetically, and create vivid colors that will soon disappear, dissolve, and go back to the Arrakis we knew. 

Each sequence was written according to a specific time of the day to sustain a dynamic effect, and each sequence will have its own identity to create a sense of aesthetic propulsion.

Q: It felt like those deep oranges, and those deep grays were really important to you as well.

Denis Villeneuve: Right. I love to work with cinematographers that aren’t afraid to burn the boat right at the start. We shot with filters, we did a tremendous amount of research with filters, so we shot with those filters at first to create that look that will emulate the idea that they are fighting under an eclipse. The Fremen will attack when the eclipse is at its darkest moment, the idea was that the Fremen use nature as their ally. What is crazy is that, of course, I wrote that in my office in Montreal.

When we came to Germany, we shot the actual sequence, there was an actual real eclipse appearing on the day of shooting. That was mind-blowing. When the eclipse happened, it was a partial eclipse, not total, but still, it’s quite a coincidence. I stopped the shoot, and we put all the cameras we had on it. The real eclipse is in the movie, actually, and that was when I knew the gods of cinema were with me! [audience applauses]

Q: The languages, not just of the Harkonnen, but of the Fremen as well, are so authentically woven into the film. What was your general approach to the languages in terms of creating them, and when you decided to weave them into the narrative?

Denis Villeneuve: The main languages are part of the book. It’s a very important part of it, one of the beauty of the book is different cultures, and specifically the Fremen culture, how it is explained and explored. The Fremen culture and its language, there are a lot of hints of that language in the book. We hired a linguist, David Peterson, who developed the language. It’s all syntax, grammar, logic, poetry. 

For example, when Chani [Zendaya] says to Stilgar, “You are insane,” in Chakobsa, she says, “You drink sand.” That’s an expression of insanity for a Fremen — to drink sand. The language was very sophisticated like that, and each actor who went with the Fremen, [had to learn] Chakobsa, to pronounce each word and sentence. There was a translation, so what Timothee Chalamet does is [speak it].

In the end, each Fremen tribe knows exactly what he’s saying, it’s not gibberish. They’re real words that mean something real. He can have roots, and he puts his intentions and emotions in the right place. We interpret that language, and it really moved me to see the amount of commitment each actor had to really learn the language.

We had a dialect coach on set who was there to make sure that the pronunciation would be right. I thought about that earlier in the press tour. It gave some crazy moments where I was super happy with the shot, and Fabien, the language coach, came on set, and said, “Actually, the pronunciation of [some specific word] was not exactly correct, we should do another take.” I said, “come on, dude, it’s a fake language [audience laughing].”

I actually adore all the crew and actors, they took that seriously. We did the same with the Harkonnen language, but it’s a little less elaborated, to be honest, but the idea that we could both chant, we could both chant in the arena, it’s all about culture, culture clash, and different visions of the world expressed through language.

Q: You mentioned the arena, that’s another glowing moment in the film, and it shakes you out of being on Arrakis when we go there. Talk about setting up that arena sequence, and what it was like to film that. Also, talk about Austin Butler — what did you see in him that convinced you that he can play, not just a psychopath, but a psychopath that has a vulnerability to him he’s trying desperately not to expose.

Denis Villeneuve: There’s a lot of cues about what the arena looked like in the book, that idea of a wide set, triangular arena with the shape of the doors, but one thing I love about the book is how Frank Herbert is studying the impact of the environment on people, how your ecosystem defines your culture, religion, habits, behaviors, poetry, et cetera, and there’s a lot there.

When you look at the desert, you understand the Fremen, you know about the Fremen, the correlation between the environment and their culture. But for the Harkonnen, there weren’t a lot of hints that their planet destroyed the environment, that it’s an industrial planet, so I said, what would be the clue that my toolbox [could use to] express? 

I wanted a black and white [look] that would have a single arc with the light that feels alien. It’s a great game with the idea of infrared cameras. Infrared usually is something that digital cameras are designed to block, so it’s like a noise, but we did the opposite, Greg played with the software, and let just that kind of light come in

It created that beautiful, eerie black and white where we see through the skin, the eyes are very piercing, insect-like, and the only thing with that is that you can’t go back. When you shoot with that, it’s in the eyes of the studio, you understand. You’d better love it. I love the fact that they don’t operate in fear, they trust us, and we shot the whole sequence with those devices, with those cameras, to create that alien look that I really love.

Now, about Austin Butler. He’s as tremendous an actor as I’ve seen.  Baz Luhrman shared with me — he’s some part of Elvis, I was very interested in him, and was floored by how he portrayed the king. I saw it as a potential to bring someone that would have the necessary sex appeal, and presence on screen, and I’m very proud of that. Honestly, he’s one of the best actors I’ve worked with, he’s a tremendous force, he’s really a force.

He’s someone who is willing to try different things.Since Austin and I are not psychopaths, we have to explore how we express that, how we approach it. It involved moving a lot, playing with the way you walk and dance, the way Austin came up with the idea that, which I love, he should express himself with an accent that’s close to Stellen Skarsgard’s Swedish accent. 

I love this accent, but he developed some tics together that we, when he gets excited, [he has a] kind of orgasmic laser twitch that I love. You choose someone and hope [it’s the right move.] It’s all theory until you put all the ingredients in front of the camera, and say, “Action.” I remember when Austin did his first shot, and I was like, “Oh, thank you.” I don’t even know, but it’s a character that is one of the most famous characters of all. He had big shoes to fill. I was really proud of him.

Q: Talk about casting Timothee Chalamet, you brought him in for both films.  What did you see in him originally that convinced you that he could become what he does at the end of the day?

Denis Villeneuve: Timothee has this incredible beauty in his features. He looks 16 years old for Part One, but he’s also a very old soul, having that heritage of half-French, half-American. Having all that cultural background, he’s really a thoughtful, brilliant, deep actor, someone that’s much older than what he is, an old soul.

I had seen things in his past work where I saw what he can do and that, when he grounds himself, he becomes a giant in front of the camera. For the first movie, I kept bringing him down, I kept saying, “Timothée, not now, you’re not Muad’Dib yet. In the end, you have to stay young.” I have to keep his youth to play with the power of his youth. But for the second one, I went the opposite, and exploited, if I can use that word, his darkest and more mature side.

Q: A few months ago, Timothee told the story about how you weren’t crazy about him speaking the language in that final speech, you didn’t know if he had it in him. He thought that he was going to have to do it in English, but you told him that you wanted him to do it in the [native Dune] language Chakobsa.

Denis Villeneuve: It was a difficult scene, and I wanted to make sure to give him all the tools to be able to bring it home. We did it in English and Chakobsa. He blew my mind when he did it in Chakobsa, because there was so much subtlety and complexity that I wanted to make sure that everything would land, but it wasn’t interesting by doing it in English, then it’s like finding the right emotional road to it, and then we did it in Chakobsa and he blew my mind. It required a lot of time to be able to perform such a scene in a fake language.

Q: Zendaya also does a tremendous job. It was really interesting how she’s quiet for that last quarter of the film, she doesn’t really say anything. It’s all in her face and expressions. Why did you think Zendaya was right for the role? Talk about her finale in Dune Part Two, and how you approached it.
 
Denis Villeneuve: I love actors who are good listeners. That’s something that fascinates me. I made a whole movie about that, people listening to the other, just reacting to what the relations of the truth that’s being displayed to them, and to see the reaction. It’s a thing that I love about Zendaya, her capacity to express herself just with her eyes, and to go to a range of emotion or ideas, just with her very minimalistic, precisely used expressions.

I knew she had that inside her. I had worked with her on Part One, and knew she had that capacity. We did some experimenting on Part One, with Zendaya, where I spent a day with her in the desert, and I was there with her, just shooting elements for the false vision, and I was so impressed by her flexibility, how daring, how, she has no fear, and she, an incredible ability to play with the zone of the — how can I say that in English — imagination, where it’s unrelated to reality, but to go in the subconscious zone, and where she grounds that, and bring that home.

It was very important for me for this final act of the film to be perceived through her point of view. The Chani character is different in the book. In the book, she’s walking in false shadows, she’s a believer, but I gave Chani her own agenda. I wanted her to become a moral compass at the end, so the movie would be perceived as a cautionary tale.

It was Frank Herbert’s idea to do that, I didn’t have to do that in the first book, but it was definitely a factor, like, it was received, and he wrote a second book called Dune Messiah, to correct that perception, where we understand that Paul made the wrong choices, and I wanted to feel that at the end of part two, that the idea would blend more precisely, and I used Chani for that, and that is why I put a lot of pressure on Zendaya on that third act.

Q: You say that you feel like your adaptation is more loyal to Frank Herbert than it is to the book itself.

Denis Villeneuve: Exactly, for those reasons, I feel that, I hope, with humility, that he would have been happy with this idea of giving Chani more substance at the end, and that she becomes our point of view of what the journey that Paul actually is embracing is the wrong one. He becomes a colonizer himself, and that’s his one, and yet her heart is betrayed, but her ideals are betrayed as well.

Q: It switches perspective, and we are seeing the story now through her eyes at the end, because it’s like, our hearts are also breaking. This is a character we’ve been rooting for as well.

Denis Villeneuve: Yeah, it’s really one of the big differences between the book and the most important, and definitely something that I’m very happy with.

Q: Talk about the sound on this film, the score from Hans Zimmer. What early conversations did you have with Hans about the score, and what you wanted it to sound and feel like?

Denis Villeneuve: The thing is that the soundtrack is really the continuity from Part One. In a way, part one and part two, it’s one big movie that’s cut in half. That was absolutely against the decision of the Academy to exclude Hans. Frankly, I feel that his score is one of the best scores of the year, that has a tremendous personality, but it’s rooted in part one, of course, because it’s a continuity. But I’m not here to complain. [audience chuckles] I absolutely love this artist. I don’t use the word genius often, but Hans is one.

His ambition was to create an alien score with a heartbreaking love theme. I remember, the only time I saw Hans Zimmer nervous is when he talked about the love theme. When I said to him, “What would be something important for you? I would love for you to write something that would break our heart about that love, that young woman who falls with this young man. That young man falls in love with a girl in their culture, and, at the end, the whole movie is structured around their love story.” He became pale and said, “those are the most difficult to write, I tell you.”[audience chuckles]

He did something that’s tremendously remarkable — that love theme at the end. It’s exactly what the movie needed. Hans has been my partner since day one when I embarked on the journey of making the Dune movie. The first artist I contacted was Hans, and knew he loved the book. He really wanted to work with me on this project, and is someone that has known the book by heart. 

He was my closest ally in discussing the underlying layers of what the movie meant, and was able to help me with the music to bring out that sacred quality that I was looking for, that spiritual aspect, and also the alien feeling. I’m really in love with that score. Frankly, it’s a privilege and honor for me to have the chance to work with Hans Zimmer on both movies.

Q: As you step away from these two films, what are you personally most proud of?

Denis Villeneuve: It’s a difficult question. When you finish a film, as a film director, you don’t know what you get, but I feel that it’s a cross-mix between pain, joy, failure and success. You see more of the failures than successes, and you just say to yourself, “I’ll do better, It'll be better next time.”