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Interviews
Denis Villeneuve, Co-writer, Producer, Director of “Dune: Part Two” Waxes Eloquently About His Sprawling Creation
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- Parent Category: Film and the Arts
- Category: Interviews
- Published on Friday, 28 February 2025 09:26
- Written by Brad Balfour
Photo by Brad Balfour
In light of the climate change events affecting humanity lately — from intense wildfires in Los Angeles to the shock snowfalls in the South to the sudden deep freeze on the East Coast — the literary Dune series and its various cinematic equivalents are more relevant than ever.
The late science fiction author Frank Herbert’s original tome, “Dune,” focused on control of the desert planet Arrakis, (also known as Dune), which is the only source of the all-important spice melange. The most valuable commodity in the known universe, the spice not only makes safe and reliable interstellar travel possible, but also prolongs life, protects against disease and is used to enhance the abilities of the Bene Gesserit, the all-powerful religious group of women who secretly seek to control the direction humanity takes.
The potential financial gains for House Atreides, which now controls Dune (it had previously been in the hands of the malevolent House Harkonnen) are mitigated by the fact that mining melange from the desert surface of Arrakis is an expensive and hazardous undertaking, thanks to the treacherous environment and constant threat of giant sandworms that protect the spice.
And that means that underlying the Dune saga are many complex questions of survival in the extreme environmental conditions of a desert planet. The Fremen, the indigenous people who inhabit the planet, follow a messianic religion which believes an all-powerful leader will come and restore the planet to its original oceanic condition.
Now in theaters and under scrutiny for awards including the Oscars, 2024’s “Dune: Part Two” is the sequel to 2021’s “Dune,” director Denis Villeneuve’s adaptation of Herbert’s 1965 novel. [As a side note, the late director David Lynch’s 1984 version of “Dune” — much maligned in its day — is is now finally get re-released in theaters in a series of upcoming special screenings].
As directed by Villeneuve — who co-wrote the screenplay with Jon Spaihts — the lengthy film follows Paul Atreides (heir to House Atreides) [Timothée Chalamet] as he unites with the Fremen people to wage war against House Harkonnen and the emperor. In the process, he rises up to become the Kwisatz Haderach, the Messiah of Dune/Arrakis.
Besides Chalamet, Zendaya, Rebecca Ferguson, Josh Brolin, Stellan Skarsgård, Dave Bautista, Charlotte Rampling, and Javier Bardem reprise their roles from the first film, with Austin Butler, Florence Pugh, Christopher Walken, and Léa Seydoux joining the cast.
Canadian filmmaker Villeneuve has received seven Canadian Screen Awards as well as nominations for three Academy Awards, five BAFTA Awards, and two Golden Globe Awards. Villeneuve’s films have grossed more than $1.8 billion worldwide.
Born October 3, 1967, this Quebec native began his career directing four French-language dramas, the last of these gained him international prominence and earned a nomination for the Academy Award for Best International Feature Film. He expanded to English-language films by directing the thrillers Prisoners (2013), Enemy (2013), and Sicario (2015).
But Villeneuve gained wider recognition for directing science fiction films starting with Arrival (2016) which earned him a nomination for the Academy Award for Best Director. This was followed by Blade Runner 2049 (2017) — critically lauded but financially unsuccessful. Then he turned to the Dune films. Both were critically and commercially successful, with the former earning him Academy Award nominations for Best Adapted Screenplay and Best Picture.
The following discussion was culled from a Q&A held after the film was screening recently.
Q: You’ve concluded your adaptation of Frank Herbert’s original novel. As you look back at both of these films, what’s something that you learned making “Dune: Part One” that was instrumental in the way that you approached making “Dune: Part Two?”
Denis Villeneuve: Everything was instrumental, but I kept joking with my film crew that Part One was like a massive rehearsal to do “Dune: Part Two.” When we started the process, we felt confident. We knew the alphabet, the world, the romance was being defined, everything. But [“Dune: Part Two”] was a much more ambitious project. It was a beast.
There were a lot of challenges and I really pushed my crew. It’s interesting to be a great pioneer about how everything we had to develop — it was a massive challenge. I stuck to the idea that I wanted to shoot with natural light, which is not in the real desert and was not easy for the crew.
Q: Let’s go to the desert and talk about sand, not necessarily how much sand you had in your shoes at the end of them getting banged — though surely it was a substantial amount. You shot “Dune: Part Two” primarily in the deserts of Abu Dhabi. Talk about what you learned about sand, what was something unexpected that you discovered about it, both in staging the big sequences, but also with the very personal, intimate sequences, not just on sand, but within the desert landscape?
Denis Villeneuve: At first, I discovered that I was out of shape. No, but it’s exhausting to work in those conditions, and it’s like, to state the obvious, we were shooting in a real environment.
There was a certain period of time, specifically on Part Two [that we had to shoot]. For Part One, we had access to shade, but with Part Two, we spent weeks in the deep desert, and there’s a part of the day, two hours between 11:30 and 1:30, where your brain starts to boil like a bowl of soup. Everybody becomes a bit stupid, including myself and the crew. I knew at that time that I had to make sure that we had the right amount of water, not to be so ambitious at this time, because it was too warm.
Shooting in the sand is like shooting in the snow. You have to deal with ridiculous challenges, like footsteps, it required a lot of discipline within the crew, because the way we shot it, we began using natural light, which meant that we had to choose a specific spot in the desert that was perfect for certain close-ups.
And for the wide shots, we chose another set of dunes according to the sun positions, and to make sure that those would stay pristine. We had to own the desert. Technically, we had to make sure that the crew respected [the conditions] — and those are huge crews. If you have more and more people to take care of, it becomes like a little army.
The shooting of Part Two was different from Part One, in that there were more action scenes in the desert. In order to maximize our schedule, we used a device, a software, that was great, because it was capturing all the environments virtually, like the opening sequence, The reality happens in maybe 16 different locations. Because we do a shot, and then do the reverse, we have to have the right sun position. We have to move the whole crew to a different spot, to have the perfect timing for it.
On November 3rd, at 9:45, if you want to put Rebecca Ferguson [playing Lady Jessica, Paul’s mother] with a rock smashing at Arrakis, we had to be there at 9:45 to have the perfect sun position. All the schedules were designed this way, I thought it was interesting to see that the computer we were using print like that, the sun patterns. It made our shoot an incredible puzzle for my first AD, but very efficient for cinematography.
Q: Towards the end of the year, a lot of people were sharing their favorite shots from the film on social media. Most of the shots were from Part Two, but there was one shot in particular, a lot of people kept sharing, the shot of the Harkonnen soldiers, walking off the cliff and floating. You have this like deep burnt red behind them. How did you execute a shot like that?
Denis Villeneuve: The idea in the book is this idea that you might be master of gravity, that they can then use a suspensor system, for lighting, or for vehicles, or also for, you can have portable postman system that allows you to defy gravity, but there’s no mention of how to move with those systems. I love the idea that like in dreams, you fly in scuba diving, the whole idea was to do scuba diving in the desert, defying gravity, and those are images came as I was writing the screenplay, and it was something exciting about it for me.
It reminded me of the movies I loved from the ’70s, the old sci-fi movies, and the way to do this was to do it as much as possible on camera. We had an immersive, fantastic stunt coordinator that created those rigs, with wire rigs, where we were actually having stunts flying on cliffs, with those, and the rest is a bit of CGI, but it’s quite, I was quite excited by the result of it.
It captured that idea of strangeness that I was looking for, that you feel you are with an alien technology. Most importantly, I was in love with the idea that we feel that the Harkonnen soldiers are foreigners, alien to this world. The Harkonnens don’t adapt, they just colonize, but never adapt to the environment where they are. That's their main weakness, and I tried to express that in this first sequence.
Q: You spoke a bit about sunlight, the way you used light, not just on Arrakis, but also with the black sun of the Harkonnens. Did you have a general approach? With the opening sequence, it felt like it was at sunset. Then you had that big stage sequence where they’re fighting the [spice mining] machine. They’re running underneath the shadows of the wings coming down from the ship. Did you know, as you were writing [this sequence], what time of day you wanted these to be shot? What was your general approach?
Denis Villeneuve: Light is, of course, our ally in naturalism, and our ally in, if we had shot the whole movie at noon, it would have been like a blend. I was trying to create contrast. I was trying to create a dynamic contrast in the movie with a color palette of different time of day, different than the movie, with an eclipse, something unexpected that will shake the audience right at the beginning, aesthetically, and create vivid colors that will soon disappear, dissolve, and go back to the Arrakis we knew.
Each sequence was written according to a specific time of the day to sustain a dynamic effect, and each sequence will have its own identity to create a sense of aesthetic propulsion.
Q: It felt like those deep oranges, and those deep grays were really important to you as well.
Denis Villeneuve: Right. I love to work with cinematographers that aren’t afraid to burn the boat right at the start. We shot with filters, we did a tremendous amount of research with filters, so we shot with those filters at first to create that look that will emulate the idea that they are fighting under an eclipse. The Fremen will attack when the eclipse is at its darkest moment, the idea was that the Fremen use nature as their ally. What is crazy is that, of course, I wrote that in my office in Montreal.
When we came to Germany, we shot the actual sequence, there was an actual real eclipse appearing on the day of shooting. That was mind-blowing. When the eclipse happened, it was a partial eclipse, not total, but still, it’s quite a coincidence. I stopped the shoot, and we put all the cameras we had on it. The real eclipse is in the movie, actually, and that was when I knew the gods of cinema were with me! [audience applauses]
Q: The languages, not just of the Harkonnen, but of the Fremen as well, are so authentically woven into the film. What was your general approach to the languages in terms of creating them, and when you decided to weave them into the narrative?
Denis Villeneuve: The main languages are part of the book. It’s a very important part of it, one of the beauty of the book is different cultures, and specifically the Fremen culture, how it is explained and explored. The Fremen culture and its language, there are a lot of hints of that language in the book. We hired a linguist, David Peterson, who developed the language. It’s all syntax, grammar, logic, poetry.
For example, when Chani [Zendaya] says to Stilgar, “You are insane,” in Chakobsa, she says, “You drink sand.” That’s an expression of insanity for a Fremen — to drink sand. The language was very sophisticated like that, and each actor who went with the Fremen, [had to learn] Chakobsa, to pronounce each word and sentence. There was a translation, so what Timothee Chalamet does is [speak it].
In the end, each Fremen tribe knows exactly what he’s saying, it’s not gibberish. They’re real words that mean something real. He can have roots, and he puts his intentions and emotions in the right place. We interpret that language, and it really moved me to see the amount of commitment each actor had to really learn the language.
We had a dialect coach on set who was there to make sure that the pronunciation would be right. I thought about that earlier in the press tour. It gave some crazy moments where I was super happy with the shot, and Fabien, the language coach, came on set, and said, “Actually, the pronunciation of [some specific word] was not exactly correct, we should do another take.” I said, “come on, dude, it’s a fake language [audience laughing].”
I actually adore all the crew and actors, they took that seriously. We did the same with the Harkonnen language, but it’s a little less elaborated, to be honest, but the idea that we could both chant, we could both chant in the arena, it’s all about culture, culture clash, and different visions of the world expressed through language.
Q: You mentioned the arena, that’s another glowing moment in the film, and it shakes you out of being on Arrakis when we go there. Talk about setting up that arena sequence, and what it was like to film that. Also, talk about Austin Butler — what did you see in him that convinced you that he can play, not just a psychopath, but a psychopath that has a vulnerability to him he’s trying desperately not to expose.
Denis Villeneuve: There’s a lot of cues about what the arena looked like in the book, that idea of a wide set, triangular arena with the shape of the doors, but one thing I love about the book is how Frank Herbert is studying the impact of the environment on people, how your ecosystem defines your culture, religion, habits, behaviors, poetry, et cetera, and there’s a lot there.
When you look at the desert, you understand the Fremen, you know about the Fremen, the correlation between the environment and their culture. But for the Harkonnen, there weren’t a lot of hints that their planet destroyed the environment, that it’s an industrial planet, so I said, what would be the clue that my toolbox [could use to] express?
I wanted a black and white [look] that would have a single arc with the light that feels alien. It’s a great game with the idea of infrared cameras. Infrared usually is something that digital cameras are designed to block, so it’s like a noise, but we did the opposite, Greg played with the software, and let just that kind of light come in
It created that beautiful, eerie black and white where we see through the skin, the eyes are very piercing, insect-like, and the only thing with that is that you can’t go back. When you shoot with that, it’s in the eyes of the studio, you understand. You’d better love it. I love the fact that they don’t operate in fear, they trust us, and we shot the whole sequence with those devices, with those cameras, to create that alien look that I really love.
Now, about Austin Butler. He’s as tremendous an actor as I’ve seen. Baz Luhrman shared with me — he’s some part of Elvis, I was very interested in him, and was floored by how he portrayed the king. I saw it as a potential to bring someone that would have the necessary sex appeal, and presence on screen, and I’m very proud of that. Honestly, he’s one of the best actors I’ve worked with, he’s a tremendous force, he’s really a force.
He’s someone who is willing to try different things.Since Austin and I are not psychopaths, we have to explore how we express that, how we approach it. It involved moving a lot, playing with the way you walk and dance, the way Austin came up with the idea that, which I love, he should express himself with an accent that’s close to Stellen Skarsgard’s Swedish accent.
I love this accent, but he developed some tics together that we, when he gets excited, [he has a] kind of orgasmic laser twitch that I love. You choose someone and hope [it’s the right move.] It’s all theory until you put all the ingredients in front of the camera, and say, “Action.” I remember when Austin did his first shot, and I was like, “Oh, thank you.” I don’t even know, but it’s a character that is one of the most famous characters of all. He had big shoes to fill. I was really proud of him.
Q: Talk about casting Timothee Chalamet, you brought him in for both films. What did you see in him originally that convinced you that he could become what he does at the end of the day?
Denis Villeneuve: Timothee has this incredible beauty in his features. He looks 16 years old for Part One, but he’s also a very old soul, having that heritage of half-French, half-American. Having all that cultural background, he’s really a thoughtful, brilliant, deep actor, someone that’s much older than what he is, an old soul.
I had seen things in his past work where I saw what he can do and that, when he grounds himself, he becomes a giant in front of the camera. For the first movie, I kept bringing him down, I kept saying, “Timothée, not now, you’re not Muad’Dib yet. In the end, you have to stay young.” I have to keep his youth to play with the power of his youth. But for the second one, I went the opposite, and exploited, if I can use that word, his darkest and more mature side.
Q: A few months ago, Timothee told the story about how you weren’t crazy about him speaking the language in that final speech, you didn’t know if he had it in him. He thought that he was going to have to do it in English, but you told him that you wanted him to do it in the [native Dune] language Chakobsa.
Denis Villeneuve: It was a difficult scene, and I wanted to make sure to give him all the tools to be able to bring it home. We did it in English and Chakobsa. He blew my mind when he did it in Chakobsa, because there was so much subtlety and complexity that I wanted to make sure that everything would land, but it wasn’t interesting by doing it in English, then it’s like finding the right emotional road to it, and then we did it in Chakobsa and he blew my mind. It required a lot of time to be able to perform such a scene in a fake language.
Q: Zendaya also does a tremendous job. It was really interesting how she’s quiet for that last quarter of the film, she doesn’t really say anything. It’s all in her face and expressions. Why did you think Zendaya was right for the role? Talk about her finale in Dune Part Two, and how you approached it.
Denis Villeneuve: I love actors who are good listeners. That’s something that fascinates me. I made a whole movie about that, people listening to the other, just reacting to what the relations of the truth that’s being displayed to them, and to see the reaction. It’s a thing that I love about Zendaya, her capacity to express herself just with her eyes, and to go to a range of emotion or ideas, just with her very minimalistic, precisely used expressions.
I knew she had that inside her. I had worked with her on Part One, and knew she had that capacity. We did some experimenting on Part One, with Zendaya, where I spent a day with her in the desert, and I was there with her, just shooting elements for the false vision, and I was so impressed by her flexibility, how daring, how, she has no fear, and she, an incredible ability to play with the zone of the — how can I say that in English — imagination, where it’s unrelated to reality, but to go in the subconscious zone, and where she grounds that, and bring that home.
It was very important for me for this final act of the film to be perceived through her point of view. The Chani character is different in the book. In the book, she’s walking in false shadows, she’s a believer, but I gave Chani her own agenda. I wanted her to become a moral compass at the end, so the movie would be perceived as a cautionary tale.
It was Frank Herbert’s idea to do that, I didn’t have to do that in the first book, but it was definitely a factor, like, it was received, and he wrote a second book called Dune Messiah, to correct that perception, where we understand that Paul made the wrong choices, and I wanted to feel that at the end of part two, that the idea would blend more precisely, and I used Chani for that, and that is why I put a lot of pressure on Zendaya on that third act.
Q: You say that you feel like your adaptation is more loyal to Frank Herbert than it is to the book itself.
Denis Villeneuve: Exactly, for those reasons, I feel that, I hope, with humility, that he would have been happy with this idea of giving Chani more substance at the end, and that she becomes our point of view of what the journey that Paul actually is embracing is the wrong one. He becomes a colonizer himself, and that’s his one, and yet her heart is betrayed, but her ideals are betrayed as well.
Q: It switches perspective, and we are seeing the story now through her eyes at the end, because it’s like, our hearts are also breaking. This is a character we’ve been rooting for as well.
Denis Villeneuve: Yeah, it’s really one of the big differences between the book and the most important, and definitely something that I’m very happy with.
Q: Talk about the sound on this film, the score from Hans Zimmer. What early conversations did you have with Hans about the score, and what you wanted it to sound and feel like?
Denis Villeneuve: The thing is that the soundtrack is really the continuity from Part One. In a way, part one and part two, it’s one big movie that’s cut in half. That was absolutely against the decision of the Academy to exclude Hans. Frankly, I feel that his score is one of the best scores of the year, that has a tremendous personality, but it’s rooted in part one, of course, because it’s a continuity. But I’m not here to complain. [audience chuckles] I absolutely love this artist. I don’t use the word genius often, but Hans is one.
His ambition was to create an alien score with a heartbreaking love theme. I remember, the only time I saw Hans Zimmer nervous is when he talked about the love theme. When I said to him, “What would be something important for you? I would love for you to write something that would break our heart about that love, that young woman who falls with this young man. That young man falls in love with a girl in their culture, and, at the end, the whole movie is structured around their love story.” He became pale and said, “those are the most difficult to write, I tell you.”[audience chuckles]
He did something that’s tremendously remarkable — that love theme at the end. It’s exactly what the movie needed. Hans has been my partner since day one when I embarked on the journey of making the Dune movie. The first artist I contacted was Hans, and knew he loved the book. He really wanted to work with me on this project, and is someone that has known the book by heart.
He was my closest ally in discussing the underlying layers of what the movie meant, and was able to help me with the music to bring out that sacred quality that I was looking for, that spiritual aspect, and also the alien feeling. I’m really in love with that score. Frankly, it’s a privilege and honor for me to have the chance to work with Hans Zimmer on both movies.
Q: As you step away from these two films, what are you personally most proud of?
Denis Villeneuve: It’s a difficult question. When you finish a film, as a film director, you don’t know what you get, but I feel that it’s a cross-mix between pain, joy, failure and success. You see more of the failures than successes, and you just say to yourself, “I’ll do better, It'll be better next time.”
Through Jesse Eisenberg’s Uncanny Lens, “A Real Pain” Brings Holocaust Remembrance Day into Focus and Gives Co-star Kieran Culklin an Oscar Advantage
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- Parent Category: Film and the Arts
- Category: Interviews
- Published on Friday, 14 February 2025 09:36
- Written by Brad Balfour
Kieran Culkin, photo by Brad Balfour
Film: “A Real Pain”
Director/Writer: Jesse Eisenberg
Cast: Jesse Eisenberg, Kieran Culkin, Will Sharpe, Jennifer Grey, Kurt Egyiawan, Liza Sadovy, Daniel Oreskes
As I reflect on another Holocaust Remembrance Day now past, the film “A Real Pain” provides a reference. That’s a good thing because it offers a fresh way to look at the unthinkable, and a great way to keep the Holocaust in a viewer’s mind.
Thanks to Jesse Eisenberg’s uncanny script and the great casting choice he made in positioning Kieran Culkin as his cousin and co-star, the film rose to the top of the stew of all the films churning through the awards.
As the clock ticks down to March 2nd, Oscar night, co-star Culkin seems closer to getting that coveted award for Best Supporting Actor. He’s already gotten awards from Bafta, SAG, Critic’s Choice and a bunch of others. Ironic too, that the Oscar is likely to go to a good Irish Catholic kid who has the spotlight on him for work in a film that richly puts the spotlight on the Jewish experience of the Holocaust.
This 2024 road comedy/buddy drama was written and directed by Eisenberg for an international co-production between Poland and the United States. It also stars Eisenberg and Culkin as mismatched Jewish-American cousins traveling to Poland to honor their late grandmother by visiting her childhood home and connecting with their heritage.
A reserved and pragmatic father and husband, David Kaplan contrasts sharply with Benji Kaplan, a free-spirited and outspoken drifter. Their personalities clash as Benji criticizes David for losing his former passion and spontaneity, while David struggles with Benji’s unfiltered outbursts and lack of direction in life.
The pair are traveling as part of a Holocaust tour group composed of a retired married couple, a lonely divorcée, and a survivor of the Rwandan genocide who converted to Judaism. It is led by Britisher James, a knowledgeable yet detached gentile tour guide.
The cousins’ dynamic is tested throughout the trip, from a missed train stop to a confrontation at the Old Jewish Cemetery in Lublin. While there, Benji critiques the tour guide’s lack of emotional authenticity and challenges its focus on facts and statistics — to David’s acute embarrassment. Benji nonetheless connects with the group members, who find themselves moved by his emotional honesty.
International Holocaust Remembrance Day this year (January 27) marked the 80th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. It was a somber day annually inviting people to remember the horrors the Holocaust imposed on the Jewish people — as well as upon many others. But in this time of rising antisemitism both on the right and left, it’s more important than ever to recall this moment in history — something that “A Real Pain” does in a unique way.
When Eisenberg thought of who would play the cousins, he first thought of himself but settled on Culkin who provided a fresh look at the characters and his actions during this trip. Long an acting veteran, Culkin started as a child in theater productions and then made his feature debut alongside his older brother, Macaulay, in the 1990’s Christmas comedy, “Home Alone.” He later reprised his role in its sequel, “Home Alone 2: Lost in New York” (1992).
Culkin had ranging roles in the “Father of the Bride” franchise (1991–2020), followed by his first lead in the coming-of-age drama “The Mighty” (1998). He played a sardonic teen in the comedy-drama “Igby Goes Down” (2002), which earned him his first Golden Globe Award nom. After much experience doing theater and various film roles, the 42-year-old gained major recognition for his portrayal of Roman Roy in the hit HBO family drama, “Succession” (2018–2023). As a result, he won the Primetime Emmy for Outstanding Lead Actor in a Drama Series.
Culkin has spoken about his part in “A Real Pain” at screenings. I was lucky to be in the audience as he was quizzed by a moderator shortly before Academy voting had ended. This Q&A is an edited version which provides insight into Culkin’s experience.
Q: Actors, or people in the industry, sometimes to get it, it takes a second or third time to see a movie before you really dig it. With this one, seeing it one more time was really great.
Kieran Culkin: Oh, cool. I first saw it in a tiny screening room — it was just me. I remember thinking, “Yeah, I get it. I connect.” I didn’t know if anybody else was going to like this thing. Then, the next time I saw it was at Sundance with the crowd. I was like, “Oh, can other people like it?” That’s cool. It’s just not what my thing was.
Q: You usually play characters who have this cool upper hand, and you’re making fun of everyone else.
Kieran Culkin: [My character] does it in this too, but I don’t think he ever properly has the upper hand.
Q: It doesn’t come off that simply. It seems like you’re deflecting or trying to put some space between you and that person for safety.
Kieran Culkin: Whatever used to sort of work, I feel like these tools are not really helping him anymore.
Q: It’s a little stopgap or something. It’s just flipping the tables, turning them on you.
Kieran Culkin: You expect me to do this, so I’m going to do that instead. It’s really, obviously, not helping him as much. He’s not anywhere I think he should be.
Q: When you have a complicated role like this, do you feel like you’ve got the whole thing off the printed page? Or did you fill it in with your own [ideas]? What else do you have to do?
Kieran Culkin: Yes, you do. But I think with this, I didn’t have to. I read it like a year before we shot it, belly laughing, and went, “I actually don’t know how Jesse did it without actually knowing the guy. There isn’t an actual person in his life that’s like this.”
Q: Oh, there isn’t?
Kieran Culkin: No, not really. He’s written characters like this, and certain elements of his personality are kind of like Benji’s personality – but it’s based on certain people he has met … but not really. [This character] is completely from his obviously messed up brain.
Q: I was wondering if it’s not his own alter ego?
Kieran Culkin: Well, he wanted to play this part. He was going to play this part. He wrote it for himself. He was like, “I want the showy part. I want the fun.” He got talked out of it, and then was told to cast me by his sister, which is true. By the way, he’d not seen me in anything. That’s true.
Q: He’s a mad man.
Kieran Culkin: He’s not, no. But he told me when we were shooting that he hadn’t seen “Succession.” I assumed he’d come to see a play I was in once or something. I was like, “You’ve seen me do theater?” He was like, “No.” I was like, “You’ve never seen my work in anything ever?” I was like, “You’re fucking weird.” He thinks this is normal. That’s his story and it could be total horseshit, but I don’t think he’s lying. I don’t know. Maybe he’s a good liar. He’s a good actor. None of those things are the same.
But apparently he sent 10 pages of the script to his sister, and his sister said, this is who you should hire. Then he does it and acts like it’s totally … even today, he’ll be like, “I met you before.” I’m like, “We met like two or three times, in passing. Couple little handshakes, how do you do,” that kind of thing. It’s a weird way to cast somebody; it’s just a big leap of faith.
Q: Maybe his sister has some kind of supernatural hold.
Kieran Culkin: He really trusts her, I guess.
Q: Well, she was spot on.
Kieran Culkin: Yeah, well, but then when I read it, I was like, every moment was so funny because it was dead right, even though I don’t really know who this person is.
Q: It rang true.
Kieran Culkin: It was full. Every single moment. So when I finished reading [it], I was like, “I’m in and I don’t want to look at it.” I didn’t read it again until a year later, right before I got on a plane to Poland. I read it once, and had the exact same moment. I was like, “I actually don’t want to talk about it” but he’s cool with it. I know he won’t rehearse it, because it’s right there. And some stuff comes out, like sometimes taking one or two. I’m like, not quite word perfect. I’m sort of playing with the shit, whatever. But once we got there, it was the same.
Q: So you did no rehearsal?
Kieran Culkin: Almost none, almost none. There were some technical rehearsals and things like that.
Q: Have you always been like that?
Kieran Culkin: No. “Succession” sort of started that. We did these big table scenes. There were certain rehearsals that we would have to do, but if we didn’t have to, you just shoot the rehearsal thing, and then we find a lot of shit in there. So I started doing that. But you can only do it, I think, if the writing is really, really good.
Q: That’s true.
Kieran Culkin: You can’t just … it’s not like, “Oh, something’s not here, but we’ll find it.” Then you can’t do that. If it’s there, we don’t need to talk about it too much, because it’s there. Just go out there, and you can play.
Q: How do you then prepare? Are you just one of those people who learns lines sort of by osmosis?
Kieran Culkin: Really fast, and because it makes sense to me. I was like, “I literally don’t have any questions about this character.” I don’t think he’s the kind of guy who goes to therapy and thinks about analyzing himself. I don’t think he is fully aware of his feelings or why he does this, or why would I? Why did David get diagnosed, and he’s medicated? Why would you even do that to yourself? You’re a different person now. Shouldn’t you just accept who you are? It doesn’t make sense, but that’s the kind of guy he is.
So when I approached him, I didn’t want to analyze him either. I wanted to know as much about Benji as he would know about himself. I would go there and be like … often I wouldn’t know what we were shooting that day. I wouldn’t even look at it. I would sort of go like, “Well, what’s my call time? Okay, 5 a.m., fine.” Get there, put some crap in my hair, put the clothes on, and then ask him, like, “What are we shooting today?”
Q: So you had, just from reading it a few times, you had learned the story. And what about the lines on it?
Kieran Culkin: The lines come fast when they’re really, really well written.
Q: When they’re apt.
Kieran Culkin: Yeah. And the same with “Succession.” I would do that, too. Oddly like you said, “What scene are we doing?”
Q: It’s so easy to do when it’s a part, whether it’s big or small, that’s been really fleshed out by the writer and really full. If you’re playing a small part, you’d think it would be easier to just learn lines and regurgitate them on cue.
Kieran Culkin: No, that’s the hardest. It’s like every seven pages you have one line. That’s the hardest frickin’ thing to learn. [Audience laughs] It is. It’s true. It’s like, why is this guy missing his cue? It’s like, oh, fuck, sorry, shit. It’s like, I’m thinking about dinner because I don’t talk for 10 minutes.
Q: When you’re playing a small part, you’re on set one day, and then two weeks go by. You might go outside the pattern.
Kieran Culkin: Yeah, you’re out of rhythm.
Q: When you have a biggish part, you can kind of relax. A director said something that was really smart: “I don’t think an actor should ever feel relaxed. It’s helpful to have adrenaline and be nervous and be alert. However, what you’re seeking is to feel released.” Kieran Culkin is the most released actor for good or worse. You’re a bit of an inspiration about that, because you’re really, really free. How do you do that?
Kieran Culkin: I don’t know. Some people learn lines. [The actor] Alan Ruck was always word perfect. He learned lines really fast.
Q: Well, fuck him. [Audience and Kieran laughs].
Kieran Culkin: I know. Then there’s Fisher [Stevens, an actor also in “Succession”}, who says, I’ll never learn a line in my life. He said that to me. He’s like, “I’ve tried, I can never learn a line.”
Q: He comes off well.
Kieran Culkin: He does. He’s still really good. It’s like, all right. He’s released in his own way.
Q: You said your lines pretty much right in this film.
Kieran Culkin: I hope so.
Q: Did you do any improv in this film?
Kieran Culkin: I think things just eked through. There’s one line that Jesse always brings up in a Q&A that only makes us laugh. It’s really buried. I don’t remember saying it to him. He told me when he was in the editing room. He was like, “It’s too funny. I’m not going to put it in.” But he did put it in the movie, which is at the cemetery. He interrupts me. I turn to him and say, “David, have a seat. Text your wife.” He took it at that moment as me mocking him for having a wife. I don’t remember saying it but I must have thought, “He was going to obey my commands.” Oh, OK. Just sit down. Finish being weird today.
Q: There’s that thing that his character is David, right? David sort of belongs to people. You’re kind of a free agent floating around in the universe, sitting in an airport. He has to check in with his boy and his wife and wants to.
Kieran Culkin: Yeah. But when you say improv, I definitely wouldn’t view it as improv if things eke out. Improv to me implies that it’s, “Hey, let me come up with this funny thing.” And it’s always a joke. It’s always to try to enhance. It’s not that. We’d dick around a bit. Or he would say, “Go talk to them.” I would go, “What do you want me to say?” And he’d go, “I’m just going to talk to this guy.”
He would say, “I’m not going to use it.” And there were certain points where there wasn’t a mic. Or he would tell me the mic’s off. And with Jennifer Gray — it was the first day of shooting — he told me to go up and talk to her. I said, “What do you want me to say? He goes, “Say anything. I’m not going to use it.” The point of the scene is that you’re connecting with people and I don’t know how. I went, “Okay.” So I went up and said, “Why are you walking alone, you fucking loser?” He told me that he wasn’t going to use that. And then he did. [Audience laughs] But that’s not improv. That’s just like, “OK, I’m going to go talk to her. I just don’t know what to talk to her about.”
Q: It’s like you’re shooting on location somewhere. The first week you’re there, you have to use your GPS to find your Airbnb. Then, after you’ve been there a while, you’re beginning to relax. You’re beginning to own your job and feel at home. You know the way home. You’ve made some neural connections when you weren’t even looking. You drive into the parking lot and you’re like, “Did I stop at that stop sign, even?” Because it was so, it was there.
Kieran Culkin: You’re describing the process of working on a play.
Q: Doing a play or having a big part in a movie, some people mark up their scripts and learn everything. [Some are] too lazy to do that, but try to do it. That’s one model.
Kieran Culkin: I used to do that. I used to be off-book for months, and would be off-book on every character in the script before the movie would start.
Q: Knowing it well can set someone free. But some people don’t want to know it well. They feel nailed down.
Kieran Culkin: I learned that on “Succession.” Because, again, you can only do that if the writing’s good. Sometimes there are people [who go], “I don’t really know this, but they basically said we’re rolling.” I’m like, “Fuck it, here we go.” There’s a group scene. Then sometimes the person would set up. For me, anyway, if I completely let myself go and I’m like, “I’ve got no parachute.” Then somebody would ask the question and go, “What’s that response here? I think it’s this.”
It just sort of came out, because I’ve read it a couple of times, even if it was a couple days ago. But I do think that’s because the writing is that good, so when you read it, it has rhythm and a flow. You’re somewhat aware of what that rhythm and flow is. So even if you don’t really know it, you kind of know it.
Q: If you have a meaty part, be it big or small, that’s really developed, it’s easier to learn what they answer here.
Kieran Culkin: I just started rehearsals on a play, and the thing that used to make me feel really free … I have lots of time to learn this. We’re going to discuss it for weeks. And then I get to hone in on every little word. Now I’m on day four, and I’m petrified that I’m going to get bored. I actually know now. I was scared of that going in but it was like, already on day four, I’ve read it once, and I’ve read it four times, and it’s come out differently four times. I’m like, “Oh, this is a completely different kind of muscle that I haven’t used in a while.”
Q: You’re going in and experiencing this whole bit about the Holocaust, and about Poland. It’s not like you’ve been living the Holocaust or in Poland. What did you learn? And how did you use that to help inform you to develop your character, in reaction to the Holocaust in Poland? And not just as Jesse Eisenberg’s version, but your own filter.
Kieran Culkin: It’s good. Okay, yeah, about that experience. Firstly, I really did appreciate the way that he wrote it and wanted to shoot at Majdanek [concentration camp]. It was quite simple, even in the script. It was: the characters walk into this room, and they take this in, and that’s it. That was also how we shot it. We didn’t see the room until we were walking in. They were rolling, usually one take, two takes.
It felt weird if we did scene work or anything like that. It was literally just taking it. As far as what I learned or whatever, I was trying to go through it as the character did. When people ask me how Poland was, I’m like, “I didn’t see it.” Whatever you saw Benji seeing, that’s how I experienced Poland. That was like, usually we did six to eight weeks, and then on the seventh day we’re traveling, and there wasn’t much to take in. So I took that in.
For me, Benji is not that curious about necessarily where their grandma came from, or even exploring that kind of pain. He misses his friend, and this is an excuse to connect with the only person left that he feels actually knows him and can kind of see him. He just lost one. And that’s all it was. That’s why there’s that little bit in the airport where he hands me the itinerary to look at.
I actually don’t even understand what it means, because I don’t care. It’s just I’m hanging out with you, and trying to connect. I’m always asking him how he’s feeling, about how he’s really feeling. So I didn’t have to concern myself with that. I just wanted to be with Davey. I don’t know if that answers it. I think it does.
Q: How about the Holocaust part of it?
Kieran Culkin: Yeah, but that’s what I mean. I think, to him, that wasn’t the point of the trip. For him, it was to connect in a way with that pain. I think sometimes when he connects with that pain, it was almost too much for him. That’s why he’s like, “Let’s get high and hang out.” I want to hang out with my friend because that’s the thing that I can understand and let’s focus on your feelings because I sort of can’t deal with whatever this is.
Q: It’s unbelievable that you two had never met or worked together because you look like you’ve known each other your whole lives, which is incredible.
Kieran Culkin: He’s freaking right. I’m telling you that was the case.
Audience1: It was a beautiful story. Good luck against Jeremy Strong.
Kieran Culkin: Jeremy’s brilliant. Have you seen “The Apprentice”? He’s brilliant. Okay, thank you.
Q: What was it like transitioning from a child actor into an adult? What do you think contributed to your success?
Kieran Culkin: The latter part. The first part, I feel like they’re two completely different things. Whatever I did as a kid, I feel like doesn’t apply at all now in the same way that it did, A couple years ago I was like, “I want to get into voice acting. That looks like a piece of piss. Hard as hell.” It’s a totally different muscle that I don’t have and I’m working on right now. It’s just like a totally different thing.
Whatever you’re doing as a kid –– or at least, whatever my developing brain at six and seven was doing –– is not what I do now. But the benefits of that are things like… I think that’s why I learn lines fast. That’s why I know where my mark generally is. And, I know this from “Succession,” I ask not to have marks because I know where I’m supposed to stand. You don’t need to tell me where. It’s like, you know, there’s things like that.
I’ve had so much experience on a set. So I know that if I wanted to ask someone what time of day it is, or how long we’ve been here, I know to go to the script supervisor and ask them. I’ve been doing it since I was a kid. I feel comfortable going directly to the prop master and asking for things like that. There’s that stuff that’s good that I’ve been doing for so long. Being comfortable in front of not only where the camera is and carrying that, but in terms of the other thing.
Q: As your character, what was that point where you felt like, “Okay, this is too much pain?” What was that moment that stopped so you wouldn’t keep feeling like Benji?
Kieran Culkin: That I wouldn’t keep feeling…?
Q: You were more focused on being focused with your cousin rather than the Holocaust. So if that came up in the moment –– like with the train scene when you’re breaking down crying –– what was that moment where you were like, “I shouldn’t be going this far?”
Kieran Culkin: He’s such a contradiction in his crazy little brain noggin. He wants to feel everything as much as he possibly can, but he also doesn’t really understand it. He doesn’t really know how to process it but he thinks he’s better off for it. “I’m going to cry. What’s wrong with you, David? If you’re not feeling anything, there’s something wrong with you.” David’s actually got his life together in a way. Benji’s not altogether wrong. The way Jesse always puts it, about putting the question about you’re putting this person’s pain up against the backdrop of the trauma that their family has gone through.
What is a real pain? He’s like “I don’t have an answer and I’m not proposing [one]. I’m not trying.” He’s throwing it out there. I don’t really think Benji’s completely wrong in his approach. I mean, he hasn’t really got his shit together but I don’t know that David’s approach isn’t necessarily right either. This is not really a full answer. But I think it’s like there was no, “I think that’s too much for him and he needs to pull back” [moment]. I think he really wants to feel everything. He just doesn’t know how to process it or use it in any sort of useful way. If that makes sense. I wish we had time for more shit. Fuck! [Audience laughs.]
Director Olatunde Osunsanmi Takes Star Trek Into New Directions With a Film Based on Section 31
- Details
- Parent Category: Film and the Arts
- Category: Interviews
- Published on Saturday, 08 February 2025 10:01
- Written by Brad Balfour
The Paramount+ made-for-streaming feature “Star Trek: Section 31” gives “Star Trek” a new spin through its tone, fast pace and range of new characters. As the franchise embarks on a new direction, the famous “Star Trek” quote — “To boldly go where no one has gone before” — takes on a fresh turn.
As directed by Olatunde Osunsanmi, with a screenplay by Craig Sweeny and story by Bo Yeon Kim and Erika Lippoldt, the film brings back actor Michelle Yeoh to reprise Emperor Philippa Georgiou from the “Star Trek: Discovery” series. It is focused on the clandestine Starfleet organization Section 31 which, in “Star Trek” lore, is a future spy agency like an amped-up CIA.
The crew is a mix of previously known characters and fresh faces. Its pace is revved up, the ships are flashy/sleek and various species with complicated back stories propel the film.
Combining a spy thriller with futuristic action, “Star Trek: Section 31” centers around a team of Section 31 agents who recruit Georgiou to help them stop a dangerous new weapon. In the “third season of Star Trek: Discovery,” the former emperor was sent back in time by the Guardian of Forever where she ended up in the early 24th century, running a nightclub located outside of Federation space. Much about the early 24th century remains a mystery, and “Section 31” doesn’t spend much time answering questions.
The film opens with a flashback to Georgiou’s childhood, setting up a focus on her redemption arc. There’s so much crammed into this fairly short film with lots of characters and story arcs that it inevitably leaves open many sequel opportunities.
In several “Star Trek” series, Section 31 is mentioned multiple times as a covert organization outside Starfleet normal operating process [sort of like Elon Musk and DOGE]. This agency is meant to operate surreptitiously, and that it did throughout the “Star Trek” continuum — especially with “Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.”
Filmmaker Osunsanmi, the man assigned to turn out this film focused on Section 31, is known for work on the horror film, “The Fourth Kind” and the TNT series, “Falling Skies.” His other TV directing credits include “Under the Dome,” “The Last Ship,” “Sleepy Hollow,” “Minority Report,” “Gotham” and “Blindspot.” From there, he went on to direct several episodes of “Star Trek: Discovery” and now, a self-contained feature, “Star Trek: Section 31.”
Born October 23, 1977, the tall sci-fi fan’s parents had immigrated to the States from Nigeria. After graduating with a Masters of Fine Arts from Chapman University’s Dodge College of Film and Media Arts, his first cinematic foray was a short film, “Etat,” that he wrote and directed. It explored the 1970s political climate of his parents’ native Nigeria. He then made “The Cavern” (originally released as “WIthIN”), a 2005 horror film.
The following exclusive interview was conducted with Osunsanmi by phone shortly after the film premiered in New York City.
Q: Were you always a “Star Trek” nerd”? Or did you start as a science fiction nerd first and then move over to Star Trek”?
Olatunde Osunsanmi: I was always a “Star Trek” guy, because I have been watching the show literally since I was 10 years old — or somewhere between 10 and 13. Are you familiar with KCOP? It used to exist way back when.
Q: Was that a channel out there on the West Coast? 
Olatunde Osunsanmi: When KCOP used to be a thing, it was channel 13. I must have been like 10 years old. I would watch TNG, and that was a big deal for me, seeing Geordi [LaForge — the character played by LeVar Burton on “Star Trek: Next Generation”]. I just felt like in that particular world of “Star Trek,” I belonged. I was growing up in Orange County, and at the time, I was usually the first Black person a lot of these kids would meet. I remember going to first grade in public school — I had been in a private school until then. My parents couldn’t afford it anymore so I went to first grade, and the kids were shocked.
They were turning over my hand to see that it was a different color on the inside of my hand than the outside of my hand. My experience in Orange County was always that of being The Other. At the time, as you know, kids are curious, and that’s okay. But I still had this experience of being the other, and by watching “Star Trek,” I was like, “Wow, all the humans are just human. They’re not black or white, they’re just humans.
I thought it’d be really cool to live in a future like that. That’s how I fell in love with “Star Trek”, and then I also fell in love with it all. I’ve always been a big fan of whiz-bang, futuristic devices and technology like warp [drives] and such. I always loved that there was this future where we could go to other planets, meet alien beings and go on adventures you’d never be able to experience here.
The final thing was that it was just really cool. It was always so optimistic and fun, a beacon of light that I carried with me. I watched TNG as the rest came out — “Deep Space Nine”, “Voyager” and so on. I was a big fan of all of those. I had to go back and watch “TOS.” Actually, I didn’t remember any of the “TOS” as an adult, so I went back and watched all three seasons.
Q: We share the same experience of watching “Star Trek” as it happens. That’s an important thing. Rather than going back and seeing it all as one long collective experience, I saw it as it evolved. You saw it as it evolved, as well.
Olatunde Osunsanmi: It’s a different experience sitting with each episode as it happens. After you watch the whole season, and the whole series, it stays with you for year after year after year. There’s no way to remember, at least not for me, every single episode that I’ve watched. But there are those few that stick out, and they sit with you, They form a certain amount of your values.
Q: Exactly. How much did that inform you in the decision to get involved with the “Star Trek” universe? Obviously, you’ve had an evolution. You went from making movies to making genre movies to finally getting involved with one of the series. How would you describe your evolution? Was it a logical evolution? What decisions led to that evolution?
Olatunde Osunsanmi: The evolution of getting to “Star Trek?”
Q: Getting through this sequence of filmmaking, getting to express what was creatively in you from the beginning. It needed to be expressed through the experience of filmmaking.
Olatunde Osunsanmi: Oh, you mean from being a kid to now? I have two early memories as a child. One is of me being in the kitchen, trying to get juice from the fridge and dropping the glass container. The juice spread everywhere. My mom walked into the kitchen and I ran out. A close second, or it might even be the first memory, is me as a kid sitting on my mother’s lap, on her balcony, looking up at the stars and her singing “Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star.” For whatever reason, I’ve always been fascinated with the stars.
Then I went to Nigeria, which is where my parents are from. I met my grandfather for the first time. He was a photographer for [Ibrahim Babangida] and Sani Abacha who, at the time, had been the dictators of Nigeria. He was the state photographer. Whoever happened to be in office or in power, he was the photographer for them. He had no political affiliation with them, but he was the in-house state photographer. He took me into his dark room and showed me how he developed pictures.
I’ll never forget the one thing he told me at the time. By now, I’m seven years old. He told me every image you capture is not just the image … you’re trying to capture the emotion. That stayed with me throughout the course of my career. The experience really impacted me, looking at all the photos my grandfather took. When I first went to college, I thought I wanted to be a novelist. Then, I started to think about it. I was like, “Man, wouldn’t it be wonderful if I could actually show people what’s in my mind instead of having to continuously describe it.” I made the switch from California Lutheran University to Chapman which had a film program with wonderful teachers and professors.
Filmmaking was very intuitive for me, both the writing of it and the directing. For whatever reason, telling stories with the filmmaking, the cinematic language, just instantly made sense. I attribute that to my experience with my grandfather back in Nigeria. One of the first movies I made was a science fiction movie called “The Fourth Kind.” It’s an alien abduction movie, very much grounded in sci-fi because I do believe there are UAP and UFOs out there.
One of the biggest questions is, “If they’re out there, what the hell are they doing here?” This love of UAP and UFOs dovetails with my love of science fiction –– “Star Trek” and “Star Wars” as well. I pull from them and form ideas. I don’t know if that answers the question, but that’s who I am creatively. Those are my influences.
Q: At what point did you think you could join the “Star Trek” universe?
Olatunde Osunsanmi: That was a surprise. I was directing a show called “Bates Motel” starring Vera Farmiga and Freddie Highmore. I got a call from my agent, Felicia Prinz, over at Verve. She said, “Hey, there’s a new ‘Star Trek’ TV show that’s starting up and they want to talk to you about producing and directing it.” I said, “How competitive is that?” She: “My agents said that it’s extremely competitive.” I said, “Okay, I’ll give it a shot because ‘Star Trek’ is one of my first loves.”
I go in to meet with showrunners Aaron Baiers and Alex [Kurtzman] over at Secret Hideout. We get to know each other in the interview. Interviews are [unpredictable]. Everybody’s been through an interview in their life and you never quite know how they go. It lasted just over an hour so they got to know me well. I’m used to interviews lasting anywhere from 15 to 20 minutes as a director. This was an extraordinarily long one that I’d been a part of up to that point.
Q: Executive producer Alex Kurtzman, was there at that interview?
Olatunde Osunsanmi: Yeah. I didn’t get to talk to him much because there were like five others, but he was there. Then I hung up the phone and I swear, 14 minutes later, I got a call from my agents and they said, “If you were offered the job, would you take it?” I said, “Well, heck yeah, guys. I mean, come on, ‘Star Trek.’ Yeah, I’ll take the job.” They said, “Well, they want to make you an offer.”
I said, “Holy shit! Okay, let’s go.” That was one of the happiest days of my life. I took the job. I had one more day of shooting on “Bates Motel”. Then I flew down to Los Angeles for a cast read of the “Discovery” pilot episode.
Q: You were there with the pilot episode, That’s great. You got into the ST universe right from the start.
Olatunde Osunsanmi: Right from the start, man. It was a whirlwind cast reading. From there, I went to visit a couple of different VFX houses that we had in LA. The very next day I got on a plane to Toronto and met all the teams up there and never looked back.
Q: Obviously, with “Bates Motel,” there were certain special effects, but it’s rooted in the real world. Then you transition into making work that’s not real. You have to take into account a lot of other things. How was that? There’s various Bibles and such, but, as familiar as you might be with the universe, you have to step into something that has a long granular environment that’s totally beyond any normal filmmaking.
Olatunde Osunsanmi: You’re absolutely correct about that. The interesting thing about my journey that I left out, was that “Bates Motel” was just one of several different TV things I was doing at the time. After I did my movie, “The Fourth Kind,” the first episode of television I ever did, was for Steven Spielberg on a show called “Falling Skies.”
“Falling Skies” was a post-edit. Boy, was I spoiled. Steven knows how to treat his directors very well. [Actor] Will Patton, who was in “The Fourth Kind,” recommended me to Steven. Steven watches all of his directors before he hires them on his TV shows. It’s a unique thing. He watched “The Fourth Kind” and found it to be of a kindred spirit with “Close Encounters of the Third Kind,” which he made. Obviously, I’ve been inspired by him all my life.
He said, “We can hire him and put him on the show.” So, I did an episode –– my first episode ever of television –– and boy was that wild. You’re prepping in seven days, shooting in eight days, it is fast! You have to think faster as a filmmaker than when you’re doing features. They brought me back because they felt it was successful. I did two episodes and then they brought me back again the following season to be the producing director on “Falling Skies.”
I got to cut my teeth on this huge, world-building show that was science fiction and post-apocalyptic. I understood, “Okay, these are the levers that have to be in place in order to get this massive machine running smoothly.” At the time, my mentor was Greg Beeman. He was so kind in transitioning because he was leaving the show. He left on his own and was so kind to show me all the ropes of what he had been doing as a producing director.
It was a nice, smooth transition for me. After “Falling Skies” came to its fifth and final season, I was doing different episodes of television as a visiting director. One of those was “Bates Motel.” When I got the call for “Star Trek” and arrived there, it still was the biggest thing I’d ever done ever –– period –– as far as the amount of world-building sci-fi.
The history is the hardest part of “Star Trek” because there’s so much of it. I understood: Okay, I’ve done this type of thing before, but I just have to scale it up by a factor of 10. There’s more money, tools, fans, history, more of everything. That was, I think for anybody stepping into the “Star Trek” universe, an OMG moment as far as what needs to be done. It definitely helps to have built a world before.
Q: Jumping ahead to “Section 31” and Michelle Yeoh… Whose idea was it for her to join “Star Trek: Discovery”? Was that something you had in mind or did they come to you and say, “We’ve been talking to Michelle Yeoh. What should we do with her?” Or, “Let’s have her do this.” How did that lead to this film?
Olatunde Osunsanmi: Michelle joining “Star Trek: Discovery” happened before my time. I’d have to say that’s an Alex Kurtzman thing. By the time I joined “Discovery,” with that pilot episode, Michelle was already cast [and had] said yes. She tells a story of reading the scripts and realizing she died in episode two, only to come back later in the season from the mirror universe — and thinking that was fantastic. I got to meet Michelle obviously that first day at the cast read. That was just amazing because she was so warm and welcoming right away. We got to know each other really well.
I’ve directed more “Discovery” episodes than any other director. I got to know the cast very well. Also, I’m a producing director, so I’m there for all the episodes. It was a very warm set and the cast was very warm. That was because of Michelle, and also of Sonequa Martin-Green [she stars as Michael Burnham, a science specialist who eventually becomes Captain} who is just a terrific individual. Michelle and I got along really well. I directed a lot of her Section 31 episodes that were in “Discovery.”
Then, before the show even aired, she pulled Alex aside and pitched him the idea of doing a Section 31 [show] revolving around Philippa Georgiou. Alex said, “Sure, that sounds like a great idea, but ‘Discovery’ hasn’t aired it. Let’s see how ‘Discovery’ does first and then we can discuss ‘Section 31.’” “Discovery” did phenomenally well and obviously spawned a whole universe from “Strange New Worlds” to “Picard,” multiple animation series and now “Starfleet Academy.” “Discovery” really did its job as being the mothership of this new “Star Trek” universe and it also spawned “Section 31.”
Q: With “Section 31,” you obviously followed the series. It was a concept within the new “Star Trek” universe that evolved. At one point, it’s just hinted at and then we begin to see agents start appearing. Finally, when “Deep Space Nine” aired, it really took form and became this whole thing. How far did you want to veer away from it as it was originally conceived? And how far did you want to build on it?
Olatunde Osunsanmi: My first real [knowledge of] the Section 31 organization was “Deep Space Nine.” There was this great character, Sloane. They gave us three different episodes with Section 31 that showed off the capabilities of what they could do. The closest I could think of was the Sloane character from Section 31. Later, it was a part of Leland in “Discovery.” Leland was a riff off that Sloane character in his bearing, seriousness, and the way he seemed to be spinning conspiracies. We did quite a bit about the Section 31 concept in “Discovery” that was very serious.
The idea for “Section 31” –– the movie with Michelle Yeoh –– was to do something that was a different flavor, a different shade of the rainbow, as Alex always likes to say. That could be for fans or an audience looking for something a little bit different. It was fun, and that was adventurous and wild. It mirrored Philippa Georgiou’s character and who she was in the story.
Q: It was ultimately conceived of as a self-contained movie, even though it does feel like an extended episode, off somewhere from the main story flow. How much did the idea of it as a separate movie … or how much did it function as being within the overall “Star Trek” universe. In your mind … the ultimate conception and creation of it?
Olatunde Osunsanmi: It started as a TV pilot. We were originally doing a series. We were essentially prepping the end of season two of “Discovery” while simultaneously prepping season one of “Section 31”, which was wild. That didn’t happen for a variety of reasons — scheduling, and then COVID, and then the [writers/actors] strikes. Then Alex had this brilliant idea –– to make it a movie and take everything we learned in prepping the series and use those salient points to do a movie. It does fit firmly.
It can’t be ignored within the “Star Trek canon. It does fit. It is designed like that. At the end of the day, it pulls from everything we understand to be the history of “Star Trek” and it’s open-ended. It’s also important to understand that even though it’s a streaming movie, it never had the $200/$250 million budget of the big Paramount movie versions. It had a streaming budget — the budget of two pilot episodes.
I can’t thank CBS and Paramount Plus enough for how much support they’ve given us. If you’re an artist and want a supportive atmosphere, Paramount Plus/CBS is the place to be. That’s been my experience with them. At the same time, there str limits to what they could do. The crews we had here were incredible with very limited resources to create what you saw in the movie, “Section 31.”
Q: On the one hand, you’re making something that comes out of the continuum of “Star Trek,” yet it also functions like it’s one of the “Star Trek” movies versus “Star Trek” episodes because of the pacing. It was fabulous but there was some blowback. Where does it lead you as the next step? Does it lead you to another film? Do you want to create a whole new series? Do you want it to be re-insinuated into “Discovery?” Where do you go from here?
Olatunde Osunsanm: We’ll continue to be inspired by whatever story we feel needs to be told. I know Michelle wants to do more, and I think that’s a beautiful thing. There’s a lot more stories to tell within this world. Alex has always been very careful about which stories he chooses to tell. I’ve also been very fortunate to have been able to tell the coolest versions of the stories that I’ve seen. We’ll just have to wait and see where the world takes us and continue to just feel inspired by it all.
Q: This film is very fast-paced. There’s a lot of violence in it with a lot of weird elements like the little alien inside the body of a Vulcan, all those things. You do twists upon a twist, the sun, all that stuff. I don’t want to give away too much of the plot, but this recalls a bit of the new series of “Star Trek” films by J.J. Abrams where you get thrown off by it being an alternate universe. How much did you decide to ratchet it up and how much did you have to pull back?
Olatunde Osunsanmi: I’d have to credit Craig Sweeny who wrote the scripts for all the twists and turns. My job was to really sell all the red herrings to make you think, “Oh, it could be Zeph. Oh no, it could be Lieutenant Garrett. It could be, who knows who it could be?” It was really my job to sell each of those twists. One of the magical things about working in the “Star Trek” [universe] and working in multiple versions of the concept is introducing the cast to the world of “Star Trek” and seeing the way their eyes light up when they first walk on set. They realize, holy shit, this stuff is real.
That was the same thing with this cast. The first set that they walked on was the “Section 31” mission ship. They just couldn’t believe it. It was interesting having met them months before and then seeing them walk on the set and slowly start to inhabit each of their characters the longer we were on that set. Not just how they sound, but physically how they were walking and moving within the set.
Obviously, they read the script. They knew it quite well. I did a page turn with each of them before we started shooting and just went through each moment, each beat, each relationship and the behavior going back and forth because of the relationships they have with the other characters. You had asked about the reveals. Those reveals we worked on very carefully to make sure they landed for the audience.
Q: It’s amazing how, even if you’ve done other genre series, there’s nothing like “Star Trek.” It changes people’s way of life because they know that will always be applied to them, no matter what else they do. How does that affect your thinking –– not only about your work in the “Star Trek” universe, but what you want to do next outside of it?
Olatunde Osunsanmi: “Star Trek” has been unbelievably good to me. The thing I love the most about “Star Trek” is that there’s always a challenge. Every episode — in this case, the movie — it’s hard to do. So, I’m forced to be the best version of myself in order to accomplish it. I think that’s a gift because before I did “Star Trek,” I thought I was operating at a terrific level. Then there’s me after I did “Star Trek.” Now I realize that “Star Trek” has pulled even more out of me than anything I’ve done before. Now that’s the level I’m operating at, which I think is a wonderful thing.
“Star Trek” introduces you and forces you to work at a high level in multiple genres –– sci-fi, action, drama, and a little bit of comedy. It forces you to be good at all of it. There’s no hiding. There’s no hiding in “Star Trek.” It’s a wonderful launchpad into whatever else I want to do because I love science fiction. And that’s where I live. That’s who I am. That’s what I do. I’m a science fiction director. The wonderful thing about being a science fiction director for me is, as I mentioned, it encompasses being an action director, being a drama director and being able to do comedy. It’s an umbrella that encapsulates all of those things. I’ll always be thankful to “Star Trek” for helping me sharpen my tools.
Q: Here’s a geeky “Star Trek” fan question: “Who do you want to meet that you haven’t had the chance to meet in the ‘Star Trek’ universe?” Who do you want to sit and talk with and just geek out and not have anybody limit your time talking to them?
Olatunde Osunsanmi: Yeah, that’s easy. Avery Brooks.
Q: Avery Brooks? Interesting.
Olatunde Osunsanmi: I’ve never met him. I just met LeVar Burton not too long ago at the Peabody Awards, but I don’t know anybody who’s within this modern-day version of “Star Trek”” that I’ve been in contact with that was on the show with him. I don’t know anybody that’s met him. I would love to meet him. Yeah, I’d love to pick his brain.
Q: Would you cast him in a “Star Trek” that you’re doing?
Olatunde Osunsanmi: I’d certainly love to do that. I would just love to cast him in a movie, period. I think he is just an exquisite actor who did a lot of things in his own way that resonated with me in a real way.
Q: There’s that episode where he plays a science fiction writer in this alternate universe. Do you remember that episode?
Olatunde Osunsanmi: It’s just barely at the fringes of my mind. How do I explain this? The intensity of his gaze was so palpable to me as a kid and also now as an adult, where I’m just like, Dude, there’s just such gravity there! This guy: don’t fuck with this guy. At the same time, this is the captain I want taking care of me. I want this guy to be my captain. I believe I feel safe with him, but never cross him. Never cross this guy. There was such intelligence there with everything he did that I just really respected him.
“Star Trek: Section 31” has been streaming on Paramount+ since January 24, 2025.
Actress/Singer Quinn Lemley Guides Your Way Through Art and APAP
- Details
- Parent Category: Film and the Arts
- Category: Interviews
- Published on Thursday, 09 January 2025 19:23
- Written by Brad Balfour
Actress, singer, speaker, producer, director, and TV host Quinn Lemley stars in the critically acclaimed show “Rita Hayworth – The Heat is On! A Life in Concert.” And now, in the last month, Tribeca Records’ announced its latest signing of the New York-based performer who has made her mark developing this long standing tribute to classic red- haired actress Hayworth. Her album, “Remembering Rita Hayworth,” includes 16 songs from The Great American Songbook which was the playlist of Hayworth’s life.
Hayworth (born Margarita Carmen Cansino; October 17, 1918 – May 14, 1987) achieved fame in the 1940s as one of the top stars of the Golden Age of Hollywood. She appeared in a total of 61 films across 37 years. The press coined the term “The Love Goddess” to describe Hayworth after she became the most glamorous screen idol of the ’40s and the top pin-up girl for GIs during World War II. The album is a 90-minute concert based on her life — 20 hit songs from the Golden Age of Hollywood. The story unfolds with Hayworth’s rise to fame, her resilience surviving in a man’s world, and then her ultimate battle with Alzheimer’s.
Besides this, more honors have been flowing Lemley’s way with her being nominated as Best Vocalist for the 2024 Broadway World Cabaret Awards. She has also announced the release of the Quinn Lemley Ready To Wear Collection by Berek which debuted in December. As Lemley says, “It’s clothing that makes women shine as the stars they are.”
And on the heels of all this, Lemley will make her presence felt at this year’s APAP conference held at New York’s midtown Hilton Hotel, January 10-14th. There she will recall her comprehensive career and be available to discuss all the shows she will be in and/or produce — such as “The Ultimate Queen Celebration,” “REBEL REBEL The Many Lives of David Bowie,” and Pink Floyd’s “Dark Side of the Wall.”
As she’s been preparing to be there in midtown, Lemley took the time to do this interview in order to pass on her experience to those she has met and will likely meet at the Hilton this week.
Q: How do you prepare for APAP? What’s the first thing that comes to mind? What do you decide to do and how do you do that?
Quinn Lemley: First, you need to become a member, then decide if you are going to have a booth, if you’re going to showcase, and if so, create the marketing materials needed for your booth and showcase. It’s important not only to have your showcase listings with APAP but, also, to market separately. I put together my team, my musicians, and people to work the booth and to promote. If it’s the first-time attending APAP, it’s best to go, meet people, and experience the conference and showcases to see what’s out there in the market.
A regular public performance is very different from an APAP showcase. If you’re showcasing, you get 15 minutes to give a taste of what the audience will experience. You want to be in a great room at a good time when people will see you. We showcased “Rita Hayworth – The Heat is On!” with a quartet last year. That was wonderful. I was in a two-year residency at Don’t Tell Mama; we were in the flow.
Our team was together. It was natural to do the showcase. This year I wanted to showcase again, but the timing wasn’t right. In late February, I’m releasing a new album which I’d love for you to review! I worked with producer, Jonathan Brielle, at his fabulous recording studio and the great vocalist, Marilyn Maye, on the album.
We just signed with Tribeca Records and – now to be nominated for Best Vocalist in 2024 for Broadway World Cabaret Awards – I’m so excited. The album is performed with an 11-piece big band of the Great American Songbook that was the soundtrack of Rita’s life: “Quinn Lemley, Remembering Rita Hayworth.”
I do have a booth this year. #202 Rhinelander.
APAP is perfect for artists self-representing themselves. I’m not a solo artist. I’m now running my late husband Paul Horton’s company, Century Artist Management Agency (CAMA), so I’m repping multiple shows that we created together.
Q: Tell the story about Paul, your late husband.
Quinn Lemley: Paul Horton passed away a year and a half ago. He was a regular at APAP and introduced me to it. He represented all kinds of people like Chuck Berry, The O’Jays, and a lot of R & B artists. He had a strong vision. When he created CAMA, he built the career of Cary Hoffman with “My Sinatra” that toured and went off-Broadway.
I was singing in jazz clubs and small theaters at the time and wanted to tour. I asked the Universe, “I’m looking for a great manager and if it’s not too late can you also find me my soul mate?” I wasn’t asking for it to be rolled into one person, it just happened that way. It was wonderful to be able to work, create, and tour together. We produced “Rita Hayworth – The Heat is On! and “Burlesque to Broadway.” We played clubs, performing arts centers and casinos. Venues like The Kravis Center (West Palm Beach) Tilles Center (Long Island), River Rock Casino (Vancouver). Now, I’m representing all of CAMA’s shows.
Q: Those shows were initially created by Paul. How did you get involved?
Quinn Lemley: No, we did them together. He said, “Produce these shows with me.” I’m good at putting things together. We were a great team. It’s about having great talent. The bands are amazing. “Ultimate Queen Celebration” (UQC) is out touring. Audiences are loving it and on their feet. All year, I’ve been performing “Rita Hayworth – The Heat is On!” Now that the album is coming out in February, we’ll be performing it again.
Q: Those seem like two contrasting things. Doing “Rita Hayworth – The Heat IsOn!” which is Big Band oriented is more of a look backwards to an earlier style, a little bit nostalgic. Even though Queen, Pink Floyd and David Bowie are not contemporary, in the sense that they’re classic rock. But rock doesn’t age in the same way that big band music does.
Quinn Lemley: They’re different animals. But they are both classics in their own way. I’m attracted to classic, timeless music whether it’s UQC or Big Band.
For the Ultimate Queen Celebration, audiences are dancing by the end of the first act. They are up, they’re in it, and it’s a concert. It’s a tribute. It’s all about the music and presenting the best musical experience. Queen, Bowie, and of course, Pink Floyd is the soundtrack of our lives from the ’70s, ’80s, and ’90s. “Rita Hayworth – The Heat is On!” with a Big Band is a theatrical concert offering a message of women’s empowerment, resilience and The Great American Songbook. Different experiences, but great entertainment.
Q: You find they don’t overlap much?
Quinn Lemley: They do overlap, because it’s in that genre of ’70s, ’80s rock. But they’re just different. Queen is the new Sinatra for all of us. Still timeless and classic.
Q: In an interesting way, they do overlap because they all did big shows with elaborate designs and sets that reflected each individual song.
Quinn Lemley: Especially Bowie with “Scary Monsters.”
Q: Bowie did that, and those tours were unique and distinct. Pink Floyd, of course, did it with the Wall and all that sort of thing. And of course Queen, in fact, all three of them had very operatic styles in various ways.
Quinn Lemley: In ways, “REBEL REBEL The Many Lives of David Bowie” and Pink Floyd: they’re theatrical but are still tributes. For example, I have three Bowies –Ziggy
Stardust, The Thin White Duke, and the Iconic Bowie representing the stages and styles in Bowie’s career. I never ask the artists to be an imitation. It’s all about the music celebrating his style creating an experience.
We had a choreographer work with the singers physically to use his movements and gestures, but not as a recreation or imitation. It’s about the music. It’s theatrical but it’s still a tribute concert.
Q: Were any of these shows visited by any of the members of those bands? Have you ever made an effort, just out of curiosity?
Quinn Lemley: With The Ultimate Queen Celebration, all of my artists have worked with Brian May and Roger Taylor of Queen. Yvan Pedneault was in both “Queen Extravaganza” and “We Will Rock You.” And MiG Ayesa starred in “We Will Rock You.” They’re both endorsed by Brian [May] and Roger of Queen.
Q: When you have guitarists as distinct as say Brian May or David Gilmore, it must be hard to find a guitarist that can do what they do.
Quinn Lemley: Of course, nobody can do what they do, but I make sure that I get the best that I can get. I have Angus Clark who shares the guitarist role, and he’s one of the guitarists in the Trans Siberian Orchestra now. My drummer is Jules Radino, who’s in Blue Oyster Cult. So for a tribute show, I’m offering the audience an amazing experience performance-wise and sonically.
This music needs to be experienced viscerally. It’s about the musicianship and the vocals are beautiful. I’m not asking them to sound like Freddie. Both Yvan Pedneault and MiG Ayesa have great voices and give thrilling performances in their way.
Q: Have you brought these to New York yet?
Quinn Lemley: Not yet. Albany, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Atlantic City, yes, Long Island. We’ve sold out at The Suffolk Theater on Long Island. It’s a fantastic theater. He is a fantastic presenter with a lot of vision.
Q: Where would you bring it to New York? In Manhattan, I mean?
Quinn Lemley: Maybe Town Hall.
Q: What about Sony Music Hall? You know that one?
Quinn Lemley: Yeah, that’s a good idea.
Q: In any case, bringing this back around to APAP now, when you do this show at APAP, are you mainly focusing on yourself or focusing on these shows as well? Is this as much a part of the booth this year? Last year it was less the emphasis and more of the emphasis on your showcase.
Quinn Lemley: I’m focused on all the shows. Getting them out there. Partnering with both presenters and agents. With the album coming out, “Quinn Lemley: Remembering Rita Hayworth,” we need to tour again. It’s Big Band, the Great American Songbook – a powerful story and a cause.
We’ve partnered with the Johnny Mercer Foundation on the album. It’s a 501(c)(3), and half the proceeds bring the “Accentuate the Positive Program” to inner city kids K -12, to teach them the power of songwriting and collaboration through music. Music programs helped me as a child, so it’s the perfect way to give back and help kids today that desperately need the arts.
Q: Do you have a relationship with Rita Hayworth’s family or any of that community?
Quinn Lemley: I have a lot of people that have proximity to Princess Yasmin, Rita’s daughter with Aly Khan. Rebecca Wells is no longer here, sadly. I’m trying to get her attention. I hope she knows about the show. She’s responsible for starting
the Alzheimer’s Association, which has helped so many families struggling with Alzheimer’s. Rita Hayworth was the first celebrity to be diagnosed.
Our show has done benefit performances for satellite chapters of the Alzheimer’s Foundation, but I would love for her to experience the show. It’s a loving tribute to her mother, Rita Hayworth, and the power and the gift that she gave the world. Her resilience is inspiring.
Q: How will you promote these at APAP? What do you have ready for it? Who do you focus on trying to connect with? I know at one time you told me that you had several different people who booked you and booked some of your shows besides yourself.
Quinn Lemley: I work with and want to work with other agents. It’s hard to be a self- represented artist. Paul, my husband, was my agent, manager, and producer. And I was the artist. I’ve been going to APAP for many years with him.
His uncle was Ronald Wilford, president of Columbia Artists Management (CAMI) so he knew everyone! Since I have the new responsibility of representing my shows as well as the shows that we created together, I’m acting as producer, agent, and artist for all the shows in one capacity or the other.
So it’s about networking, and connecting with presenters, agents, and other artists. Share what we are doing and hopefully, if it’s a fit, we can work together.
Q: Is that a different place than the one we were at last year?
Quinn Lemley: Yes. We’ll be on the first floor, Booth #202, in Rhinelander this year, We’ll be the welcome committee!
Q: With APAP, you’ve seen it change so what things would you like to strategize?
You’re talking about which booth is the best, and the timing for your showcase. How do get people to come to the showcase versus having them come to the booth? How has APAP changed? You’re one of the people who’s a real APAP veteran. I’ve spoken to a lot of newcomers, but not somebody with such roots.
Quinn Lemley: I still don’t know how to navigate. It’s very different being an artist than being an artist and having to represent oneself and shows. The conference is bigger than it seems on so many levels If you want to be “in the game,” you have to “play the game” like Queen says! It’s about making contacts and meeting people, having relationships and going to these conferences to connect and learn.
Q: What is the first thing you think of doing? Walk me through Quinn Lemley’s process.
Quinn Lemley: The staff is amazing at APAP and they’re very helpful. It’s important to reach out and ask questions if you don’t know or need help. Once you register, you start getting the list of attendees. You have to make people aware of what you are doing, where you are and then stand out.
Presenters need content, and we have great content for their audiences. It’s a perfect place for people to meet. But where the conference comes alive is “You never know who’s standing next to you.” It could be somebody in the elevator or at a showcase.
Q: That’s what inspired this story, because I saw you working through the process. I’m curious to see what you learned from last year. What are you improving for this year? What did you learn from previous years that you were able to employ?
Quinn Lemley: Last year, I did two showcases at The Hilton and I signed up for everything. With Paul’s passing, I didn’t know what to do. So I was saying yes to everything. It was natural for me to showcase last year because I was in a residency with the show, won The Bistro Award, and got great reviews. I also did the full show off- site on Sunday. I did a Friday night and Saturday night in the hotel. I would say for people who are going to showcase, it’s best to showcase in the hotel. But for me, it was great also to be able to offer the entire show as an experience at a venue.
The biggest lesson I learned is to not be shy and to connect. It’s a mindset. It’s so easy to get intimidated or overwhelmed. We’re all in this business together and play different parts to bring the magic of live performance to audiences. The arts change lives.
For more info go to:www.QuinnLemley.com or www.CAMATalent.com
