Director Rich Peppiatt Brings Irish Hip Hop to the World Through his Award-Winning Film “Kneecap”

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Parent Category: Film and the Arts

Category: Interviews

Published on Wednesday, 07 August 2024 15:02

Written by Brad Balfour

Photo: Brad Balfour

When I was given tickets to its Tribeca Festival premiere, I was excited to see “Kneecap,” even if only to hear Gaelic rap. Thanks to the manic performance of this Belfast-based trio and the frantic direction by Rich Peppiatt, I declare that — as Charlie XCX would say — it’s “brat.”

“Kneecap” is this sex, drugs, and hip-hop biopic about a real life trio from Northern Ireland which does its business in Gaelic, the aboriginal Irish language. In 2019, fate brought together disillusioned music teacher, JJ, with self-confessed “low life scum,” Naoise and Liam Og. The result? Performers “Kneecap” and the sound of Irish music was changed forever.

But amongst all the mad stuff in the film that Irish-Brit Peppiatt made out their origin story, it’s really about the protection of indigenous language and culture. That combination of serious issues with the group’s wild antics made it a sensation at Sundance where it won the NEXT audience award. Now released through Sony Pictures Classics, it’s been selected as the Irish entry for Best International Feature Film Oscar at the 97th Academy Awards.

Before all this, Peppiatt worked as a journalist for numerous national newspapers. In 2011, his resignation letter to “Daily Star” proprietor Richard Desmond –– in which he accused the paper of Islamophobia and unethical journalism –– went viral when it was leaked to “The Guardian” newspaper. He became a prominent critic of tabloid behavior, giving evidence at the Leveson Inquiry into Press Ethics.

Peppiatt turned his experiences as a journalist and the fallout from his resignation into a stand-up comedy show titled “One Rogue Reporter.” It premiered at the 2012 Edinburgh Festival Fringe. Described as “hilariously turning the tables on the tabloid power players, it tested the public’s right to know to its eye-opening extremity.”

After Edinburgh, the show toured across the UK, finishing up with a run at London’s Soho Theatre. Peppiatt transformed it into a documentary, “One Rogue Reporter” — starring Hugh Grant, Steve Coogan and John Bishop — which premiered at Sheffield DocFest in 2014.

Now, with “Kneecap” tossing the British-Irish writer/director together with the group into a worldwide media salad, this arts editor was engaged to probe both director and band about their lives and the film’s impact. Here’s my conversation with Peppiatt. Next week, look for my encounter with the trio. 

Q: A number of people have made movies about the Troubles. To show the post-Troubles world is fascinating. As you said in the production notes, you’ve heard about Kneecap and then it hit you. Is that what the movie is about?

Rich Peppiatt: I just went to one of their gigs. It was as simple as that, really. I was blown away by their stage presence, their sort of charisma, and the fact that they didn’t care about wearing their politics on their sleeves. Myself, I felt that music, in a big way, has become much more manufactured, PR’d to death and packaged up. They were so the opposite of that — that’s what I thought was so interesting. Above and beyond that, there were 800 young people in this crowd who were singing back every word. They were rapping in Irish. 
 
To me, it was a bit of a revelation. There was this sort of community in the north of Ireland of young people who were engaged with the language. Certainly, at a political level, there was a real stasis around the Irish Language Act which was a hot topic, but it didn’t seem to be going anywhere. So the juxtaposition of what was happening on the political level and this grassroots movement that was building, I just thought was the foundation of something interesting. 
 
Q: There’s a big debate in Ireland about reunification in 2030 where there’s hope to reunify, and it’s moving forward. Acceptance of the Irish language and allowing it to become, not a secondary thing, but an important aspect of learning the culture, is a cool thing. At the same time, this film probes the clubs and music scene in Belfast. How did you manage to include it all — and Michael Fassbender — without overwhelming us about it. 
 
Rich Peppiatt: I think Kneecap is very political in a small “p” way. Their political stance is just who they are. One thing that really interested me was their speaking the Irish language, in the way they do. Living their lives through the Irish language, whilst being born in and living under what is legal or illegal in the United Kingdom. That is fundamentally a very political act –– to reject not only recognition of the state, but also to reject their language. It’s such a fundamentally political thing to do that I found it very inspiring and very powerful. A lot of the politics in the film are built off of that.
 
Q: In Dublin, there’s a crop of bars that have grown up north of the Liffey [river] that very much reflects the kind of crowd that the youth are about. Once again, the youth are identifying with their own music and scene. You’re definitely older but you must have identified a scene that you were part of at one time.
 
Rich Peppiatt: I used to be a journalist. That was my first career, and I ended up resigning very publicly from my career in journalism and leaking my resignation letter to the Guardian. I ended up doing a stand-up comedy show based around that and making a documentary that was me going after tabloid newspaper editors.
 
Q: “One Rogue Reporter.” 
 
Rich Peppiatt: Yes, and that was a controversial film which upset people as well. I am just naturally drawn to controversy, but not for controversy’s sake. I just think that sometimes an interesting way to get underneath a topic and spark a conversation around certain issues is to do something controversial. I think that me and the band really bonded over that with a kind of a fairly carefree attitude as to what people think of us. 
 
Q: You’re making a documentary about them, but they’re acting themselves besides other actors….
 
Rich Peppiatt: I certainly wouldn’t call it a documentary. 
 
Q: A faux documentary?
 
Rich Peppiatt: Well, I don’t know if I’d call it that. You’re quite welcome to call it that because this is a film that different people will call different things. Some will say it’s a musical. I would call it a black comedy.
 
Q: There’s that too. 
 
Rich Peppiatt: There’s some documentary nods to it but, really, it’s a narrative feature film. The fact that it’s based on true events and also stars the people as themselves makes it quite a unique proposition as a project. That was probably something which maybe got us funded. It felt very different from anything out there that’s been done before. 
 
Q: Another thing about it is that it’s very meta to have your actors playing themselves. So, to some degree, they’re finding their truth in themselves in other ways. They’re adding a level of artifice. 
 
Rich Peppiatt: There’s a great degree of bravery that’s involved in the art of acting yourself on screen. If I say to them, “I want you to be sixth century knights,” and the audience turns around and goes, “that guy’s an asshole,” the character isn’t you. It doesn’t really affect your own feelings about yourself. But when you put your own real self up on the screen, you’re asking an audience to judge you, your family, and the decisions you make. That’s a vulnerable thing to do. 
 
Certainly, a lot of the film is true and it took the boys to places sometimes that were quite difficult for them, particularly around Nisha’s storyline, family issues and things like that. It brought up a lot of things. Perhaps they were things they weren’t always expecting it to bring up. It was difficult at times. But they persevered. They were determined to see it through and not shy away from that.But you’re right, it is a very meta film. Beyond just them playing themselves, there’s a lot of very overt nods to other films like “Trainspotting.” We have a whole thing in there, JJ disappearing down a bin. It’s just a very meta nod to the worst toilet in Scotland. There’s a scene with JJ in a mirror trying on his balaclava and dancing around and that’s “La Haine.”
 
Q: You mention that Danny Boyle is a very meta kind of director in some of his movies. You don’t even think about it until you think about it. 
 
Rich Peppiatt: Some directors don’t like the idea that anyone would think that they’ve copied anyone else or taken inspiration from anyone else. But the truth is, there’s nothing new under the sun. Personally, as a filmmaker, I have no problem doffing my cap to those who’ve come before and going, “Hey, I love that thing. Here’s my version of it.”
 
Q: Did you find that your English background gave you a different perspective on this? And then have you been out of the community? 
 
Rich Peppiatt: I don’t think an Irish man or woman could have made this film. I think that there’s so much baggage that comes with it, it would have been seen as sectarian.  I think the fact that I am British makes me Teflon from any accusation that, “The film you’ve seen is anti-British.” You can’t turn around and say it’s an anti-British film when it’s written and directed by a British person, right? It’s like whatever “The Daily Mail” or someone’s Britishness should be isn’t necessarily what I think Britishness should be. I think that Britishness is about recognizing your colonial past and the impact that the imperialism of my homeland has caused on places like the island of Ireland. 
 
Q: Have you learned a little Gaelic? 
 
Rich Peppiatt: Absolutely, I did two years of Irish classes. I threw myself into it. I was doing like five classes a week. I still wouldn’t say I’m fluent, but I get by. I’m the only one in my Irish family who speaks any Irish, so I like to throw that in their faces when they’re taking the Mick out of me for being English.
 
Q: There’s many opportunities for this movie to take the piss out of you. 
 
Rich Peppiatt: There you go.
 
Q: What are the things you think of as the most profound things you learned from the experience? 
 
Rich Peppiatt: In the learning of the language, there was a real understanding of what it means to the band, as a thing. Irish is an oral language, unlike English, which is a written language. So it’s passed down through music, stories and poetry. It was a realization that kneecaps were part of this very proud canon that stretches back, that predates English, of Irish storytellers. They are a modern version of that, but they very much are within that mold. I think that their cultural impact has been massive on the island of Ireland. It will outlast their music, and it will outlast this film. The impact they’ll have will be in preserving the language of their forefathers. And I think that’s a really special thing that they can lay claim to, even though they would never sit there and say it themselves. 
 
Q: Was there a difference between audiences seeing it in the North, and audiences seeing it in the South? 
 
Rich Peppiatt: To be honest, the film hasn’t really screened that much. Since we won the Audience Award at Sundance in January, most of our screenings have been in America. We’ve done a few European festivals and have had an Irish premiere. A very select few people in Ireland have really seen it so far, and that’s exciting. But it’s not until this month that the Irish proper premieres, when their release week sort of stuff happens.

We’re very excited to have the film out in America. It’s not something we expected –– going out to 1,000 or 1,500 screens. It’s a big release. Sony Pictures Classic have released some of my favorite films. My youngest daughter’s name is Amelie. My other daughter gets annoyed when I say that, because she says, why am I not named after one of your favorite films? And I say, “I didn’t think you wanted to be called “Trainspotting,” love. Ha ha!” [chuckling]
 
Q: At Sundance, you must have met people that are some of your icons and idols and all that. Did you get to meet anyone? 
 
Rich Peppiatt: Not really. To me it was all a bit of a blur. The film was received very well, and you have these things, then, Hollywood descends on you a bit. It was an interesting experience of having these meetings and talk about other films you want to do, being offered films that maybe you want to do.So it all passed and then you’d pop in to see the band occasionally. They’d be in a bar, drinking themselves to death. I was trying to balance having a bit of fun with doing some business, striking while the iron’s hot. You didn’t really know whether that week would be the week, or whether it would spiral from there. Luckily it has spiraled, and we’re in a very good position now. On a personal level, it’s opened a lot of doors that I never thought it would. And, it’s exciting.
 
Q: Quite an evolution from “The Guardian” I would say.
 
Rich Peppiatt: I did work at “The Guardian” at one point, but the paper I was on was “The Daily Star,” so it was an even bigger evolution. I worked on those papers. That was my first career. It was. I can’t say that I professed that I was a great journalist. But certainly, once you’re a journalist, journalism is storytelling. Once you have a feel for storytelling, it never leaves you.
 
I never live with regret. I think that the things that you do before set you up for the things you do after, sometimes in weird ways. I think of the sorts of projects, of films that interest me and do it. They’re always based in real life. I’m not a great person with a blank page. It’s always something based on a real thing.
 
Q: Do you think it’d be things based on your own life? Or do you think it’ll always be things you discover? 
 
Rich Peppiatt: No, not particularly my own life; I don’t think it’s that interesting. But I’ve lived a few lives. Certainly, spending five years with “Kneecap” has aged me somewhat.
 
For part of my life, I was a hard partier when I was a bit younger. But when I moved to Belfast, I’d just had my second child. It was the idea of moving out of London with my wife to live in Belfast for a bit of a quieter life, away from the madness of London. But within two weeks of arriving, I met Kneecap. My wife was like, “Of all the people you could make friends with, it would be those three? The hardest partying lads in the North!”
 
Q: Here you are. You’re moved to Belfast to have a quiet life, and then you’re making a music film, which isn’t exactly quiet. Of all the stars you could meet, or would meet, or would like to use for the next film, who was on your mind? James McAvoy or Ewan McGregor? But there you go, Danny Boyle –– have you ever met him, or do you want to meet him? 
 
Rich Peppiatt: The funny thing was, our composer –– a guy called Mikey J. Asante –– he was working with Danny Boyle in Manchester, on “The Matrix” musical.
 
Q: “The Matrix” musical?
 
Rich Peppiatt: One day, Mikey was sitting in a room, watching a part of our film, working out some music. Danny walked in, and he was like, “What are you watching?” Danny sat down and watched a couple scenes of the film, and then walked out. Then Mikey called me and was like, “You wouldn’t believe it. Danny Boyle’s just watched some of your film and he loves it!” I was like, “That’s great, that’s amazing.”Then the other person who… I woke up one morning and [“Trainspotting” author] Irvine Welsh had somehow gotten to a screening, like a freebie screening. And he had tweeted that he thought the film was absolutely fucking brilliant. That was a big kick. So now me and Irvine are actually talking about a project together.
 
Q: You could do his style, definitely. 
 
Rich Peppiatt: Look, it’s been a very transformative year, personally, for me. And then people say, “Are you enjoying it?” Yeah, I guess I am, but it’s also very anxiety-inducing. There’s so much going on all the time. And –– but no, look –– it’s filmmaking. Whenever you get a chance to be doing something that you’d do for free, but get paid for it, you’re not in a bad place. 
 
Q: Speaking of that, how did you cast Michael Fassbender and bring him in? How did you entice him? He’s the biggest star that you could get. How did that happen? That’s the obvious question here.
 
Rich Peppiatt: Well, there’s only really a handful of what you’d call top-tier Irish actors who speak Irish.
 
Q: Oh, I didn’t think of that hook. 
 
Rich Peppiatt: That was the thing. We went, “Well, who is there?” Michael Fassbender is a hero in Belfast for the way he depicted Bobby Sands in Steve McQueen’s Hunger. Okay. So for us, he was the first choice straight away. It was like, “Look, it’d be amazing to have Michael Fassbender.” And the script got into his hands. I think maybe, one of the funders, friend of a friend, sort of thing. Within a week, I got a text message saying, “Hi, it’s Michael. Do you want to chat?” To be honest, I thought it was one of those spam messages, or something. I thought, “Who’s Michael? Michael who?” I didn’t have a number saved for him. Then suddenly I realized, “Oh, maybe that’s Michael Fassbender.” Then 15 minutes later, we’re on the phone together. And 15 minutes after that, I came off the call. He had agreed to do it. 
 
Q: You directed Michael Fassbender [playing Arlo Ó Cairealláin father of trio member Naoise “Móglaí Bap” Ó Cairealláin]. Was that a little intimidating or did you slip right into it? Did the boys bust his chops, or whatever? 
 
Rich Peppiatt: Michael Fassbender –– look at the directors he’s worked with. From Tarantino, to Steve McQueen, it’s a who’s who — he’s really worked with everyone. Obviously, the weird thing about being a director is, unless you’ve come up within the system, so to speak, you’ve worked your way up through production — which I haven’t — you never really know how any other director directs anything. There’s only one director on set. You don’t spend much time with other directors. There’s always a part of you that questions whether the approach you take is similar, or whatever, to other directors’ approaches. Part of that’s because you can direct a film in a thousand different ways. 
 
There is no one right way to do it. But it certainly puts into focus in your head a little bit, with the idea that this guy’s worked with the best of the best. Is he going to be thinking, “What the hell is this guy fricking at?” Do you know what I mean? He would always hang out with us after shooting, and have some beers. And I’m sure at some point, drunkenly, I probably asked him, “Am I doing this right, Michael?”He was very complimentary, which was nice. He was probably just being polite. But when you look on a monitor and you see Michael Fassbender there doing a scene that you wrote, on your set, it certainly is a moment when you go, “I’m living the dream here!” You can also tell why he’s a movie star. You see him on that monitor –– the control he has, the poise he has on camera, just the look of him. He’s just got it.
 
Q: He has that eye and when he’s looking at the camera, or looking away, he’s got it down. 
 
Rich Peppiatt: Exactly. so, you go, “Okay, I can see why this guy is big time.” But also, he’s a lovely man. He brought a lot to the role and to the set. One thing the band was taught when we’re doing acting classes is that acting is all about reacting. It’s about listening and it’s about being in that moment with your co-stars. Good actors give you good things to react to, while bad actors give you nothing to react to. It’s hard to have a good scene and give a good performance across from a terrible actor.
 
Q: The band rose to the occasion.
 
Rich Peppiatt: They rose to the occasion. Absolutely. As good as I felt they were in rehearsals and in the studio, we were learning our acting chops …. They took it up 30 to 40% when we were on set actually doing the thing. Maybe that’s the performers in them as well. They used to being backstage and then, bang! The music drops and out they go; they turn it on. Certainly, when the camera rolled, they turned it on.
 
Q: Now, here you are, you’re on the stage, then you’re getting this movie scene — blah, blah, blah. Are you expecting to jump right into the next thing? Or do you need to chill out? How are you handling it? 
 
Rich Peppiatt: It’s been a long time now, since January, where it feels like sort of revving the engine with a handbrake on. Do you know what I mean? You’re promoting the film, going to film festivals, and then it’s all great. But I finished the film quite a long time ago now. And you’re ready to get on with the next thing. I’ve got a film lined up. It’s with an American studio, and that’ll be shooting next year, hopefully. So, we’ll see.

In the New Film “Crossing," Borders of All Kinds Make a Difference in Life and Love

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Parent Category: Film and the Arts

Category: Interviews

Published on Monday, 05 August 2024 14:58

Written by Brad Balfour

Making a crossing between borders can be a lot more than just a matter of passports and visas. Witness the situation between Northern Ireland and the Republic to the south. The same is true for the crossing between the countries of Georgia and Turkey. Both are Muslim countries but when you consider the difference between a rural Georgian village and cosmopolitan Istanbul, that simple move means a lot -- especially if you’re gay or trans.

In "Crossing,” an older woman searches for her late sister's child — who is trans — who had to leave their very conservative village in Georgia for comparatively open Istanbul, Turkey. As directed by Levan Akin, the story involves not only the search for a person. but also the discovery of contrasting social and political situations.

Born in December, 1979, Swedish film director/screenwriter Akin is best known for his gay-oriented film, “And Then We Danced,” which received critical acclaim and won the 2019 Guldbagge Award for Best Film.

The 44-year-old was born and raised in Tumba, Sweden but his parents are Georgian. They moved to the Scandinavian country in the 1960s, when Georgia was one of the republics of the Soviet Union. Akin returns to Georgia every year with his sister for the summer holidays. There, he consolidates his knowledge of Georgian culture and language. 

In January 2023, it was announced that the openly gay Akin had written and directed “Crossing,” with principal photography concluding in Istanbul. It world premiered on February 15th, 2024, as part of the 74th Berlin International Film Festival’s opening Panorama. At Berlin, it received the Jury Prize from the Teddy Award jury for LGBTQ-themed films. It was then released in Sweden in March 2024. Mubi acquired distribution rights for North and Latin America, United Kingdom, Ireland, and Germany. The film recently made its New York debut at this year’s Tribeca Film Festival before landing in theaters in July.

This Q&A was culled from a moderated conversation in the Angelika Theater where the film is now playing.

Q: Your last film, “And Then We Danced” was The Swedish Oscar contender. It was about some very cute dancers who are coming to terms with their sexuality. It was a movie that was met with some difficulty in protests in Georgia where it takes place and where your parents are from. Was it an easier experience going into this film? 

Levan Akin: Filming “And Then We Danced” was tricky for several reasons. But one of them was obviously the subject matter. I don't think it would have been if it was just a movie about the gay guys, but it was the dance element which was [based on] tradition. With this show, we didn't have any problems like that. Not at all. We did everything that we could to do our thing filming in both Georgia and in Istanbul. They let us.

Q: You are not showing “Crossing” in Georgia. 

Levan Akin: Actually, that was mis-quoted. We were going to show it, not on the screen. But as soon as it premiered in Berlin, they started writing and making up stuff about it. They hadn't seen it, but because I made it, they were just using it as a political tool. So we decided to drop it. Now we're going to be in Sweden in November, depending on the elections in Georgia. 

Q: Probably you might feel some trepidation about screening it there, just based on the experience of Polaska.

Levan Akin: Yes, of course. However, it's a very loud minority, I would say, that scream the loudest in Georgia. I think most of Georgia is very supportive of it. 

Q: Talk about the germ of the idea for this movie. Wasn't it a true story that you heard about when you were working on “And Then We Danced”?

Levan Akin: Exactly. Actually it was during the aftermath of “And Then We Danced.” Everything in the news back then in Georgia was about queer things. There was a story about a grandfather who had never been surprised by this, but was very supportive of his granddaughter who was trans. She'd been kicked out of the household from the village where they lived, and he would go and visit her once a week.  

I thought it was a nice story. That was one of the things, but also the whole discussion about “And Then We Danced” really made this film. They're sort of in conversation with each other, because of the narrative, the discourse around it.  “And Then We Danced” was very much like, Oh, it's the old generation versus the young generation. Or it's Post-Soviet versus Soviet, where all of the older people are bigots and homophobes. That felt very polarizing. I felt like it only served the oppressors to have that sort of narrative about this topic. (A) That's not true. And (B) It would be interesting to make a movie from the perspective of a relative or someone, and how they come to terms with this. 

Q: How did you find each of your actors? You have a trio of really great ones here. The older actress, Mzia Arabuli, has some theater credits, but she comes into this movie playing retired teacher, Lia. And she seems like a veteran, trained for a long time. 

Levan Akin: She's incredible. The first time, it was very hard to cast this film. It took much longer than I've ever cast a movie. It's because we needed three leads and all of them had to be interesting. They had to be able to work together in a good way, but also they should be able to carry their own movie by themselves. That was tricky.

Then also there's a huge cast of smaller roles. All of them have to be believable with all of these things, but it's not so easy to find actors. There's not a lot of trans actors, unfortunately, in Turkey or anything like that, so it was very tricky. The actor, Deniz Dumanlı — she played the role of a lawyer who works for a Gay support-oriented NGO — was also hard to find. But when I saw her, I fell in love with her, by the way. Of course, Her face is incredible.

Q: Is it true that Mzia hadn't really ever spent time with any trans people? 

Levan Akin: Yeah, of course not. She hadn't. It's a very marginalized community in Georgia and it's very hard for them to get jobs, regular jobs. Most of them are, unfortunately, sex workers because they don't have options. It's not like something unique in every decent society. It's getting better, but a lot of Georgian women go to Turkey like in the movie to work there. We actually had a lot of people from the community in Turkey, also in the team. Mzia and Yasmin became besties. There was a nice story unfolding behind the scenes of the film, too. 

Q: It's so meta now. 

Levan Akin: It really is. I want all of my work to be for me, personally. You spend a lot of time making movies. And life is short, so I want to do things where I also learn. It has to be interesting for me to make these films. 

Q: What about the actor, Deniz Dumanli, who plays Evrim? This is her first movie? The way that you play with audience expectations where when we first meet her, we think maybe this is Tekla. She also kind of looks like Lia in a way. 

Levan Akin: Again, she's not an actress. I felt as soon as they came in front of a camera, they became actors. She's not trained as an actor or anything. But she saw an ad on Facebook, and her friend was like, “You always wanted to be an actor. You should apply.” She applied, and we called her for a very small role, but she was so good. It was like, that was in the end. And that was like two days before we started filming. It's a long story. I won't go into that. And the first scene she did was the one where she's partially naked. But she owned it. She walked in comfortably, and she was born to be on screen. 

Q: Talk about how you embedded yourself in the trans community in Istanbul. You spent a lot of time there.

Levan Akin: It was tricky because it was during the pandemic. Everything was closed. All of the spaces and rooms that I wanted to enter, I wasn't able to. That took quite some time but we did it. We started very classically. We contacted all the NGOs. Pink Life, which is in the movie and another really good NGO in Ankara. We started with that. Then I met several people that became an inspiration to the character I knew. Many of the people I met, I included in the film. Many are playing versions of themselves. A lot of the scenes are stuff that happened while I was doing research. 

Q: What about the street kids in the movie? Filmmakers find children, and it's like you go through a process where you end up suddenly with hundreds. 

Levan Akin: That's exactly what happened here. We looked, and looked, and looked. A film is everything. It tests everything. So, if it's not right, you might as well not make it. I feel it has to be right. Otherwise, it's a waste of everyone's time.

Q: The ending deceives us at first about what Tekla’s fate might be — it’s this kind of movie moment. You see there's a reconciliation. But the fact is that maybe Tekla is not actually in trouble. Maybe they] don't necessarily want to be found. Was that always the ending that you had in mind?

Levan Akin: Yeah. It came early on. I thought it was important for me to include that monologue that Mzia does at the very end, for many of us from the region and all over the world. In Turkey and Georgia, we haven't been able to have that conversation with the people around us. Just to have her ask, “What are you going to tell her if you find her?” I couldn't have Lia find her. “Maybe [she] wouldn't likeyou.”That would be cheesy, right? I was like, “I really want to hear what she would say. That's what I really want to hear.”

Q: Did you encourage Mzia and Lucas Kankava [the young villager who travels with her to help in the search] to spend time on their own, hanging out together?

Levan Akin: No, because they were also a casting lesson. Every day we were casting. I spent like two years finding new people. I had to postpone the film a bit. It was going to come out a year before but then I stopped filming, because I hadn't found the right people. Also, I felt like I hadn't been able to spend enough time with the community. I didn't really feel like I had enough with me to make a film in a way where I could stand confidently here, now, and be able to talk about it.

Q: It's also quite an international production. How many different countries were involved?

Levan Akin: It’s horrible, the whole European financing system is a nightmare, a mess. You bring in all of this money, but at the end of the day it doesn't really help you. You have to spend that money in those countries. Everything becomes more expensive and you have so many chefs. I have a main producer, and she's incredible. She also worked with me on a million ads. She's Swedish and lives there. Luckily, she guards me somehow. Everything goes through her. Otherwise, it would be a nightmare. It's hard because it's difficult financing, of course. It's always difficult. The system in Europe is very dangerous.

Q: Obviously, you've been through this gauntlet of Oscar submissions before. Given the number of countries that produce this movie, which would be the one that would submit it?

Levan Akin: It's a Swedish production company — they're the main financiers. They put in the most money.  

Q: It's fascinating how you managed to insinuate yourself into the two countries. You said you spent a lot of time there that allowed that to happen. There's a sort of a casualness that you're able to achieve, like we're really walking there. What did you do to affect this? Were there things in terms of learning the area, in terms of the lighting or other things? Writing it is different from shooting it.

Levan Akin: I love traveling. I also love to sit in a room where you can go to places and feel immersed. So, me and the DOP, we really worked with this in a way where we used a lot of long lenses and had a lot of a foreground of people in Istanbul. There was a whole camera person meandering off doing his own thing. This was also something that we talked about. I wanted the camera to feel like a third person that was with them on the trip. That was sometimes the object that would be looking at them from afar. Sometimes it was both. Also, we would hide a fountain of stuff because we couldn't afford [to pay for permission].

It was very much like people. It's like thousands of people everywhere. And it's never silent. There's always music playing. There's cats everywhere. But the thing is, we couldn't afford to have like a thousand extras, obviously. So, what we would do is that we have 40 of our own extras that are around the main actors, and then everybody else is real people, but you can't show their faces. We were on zoom lenses from the balcony. Then we would zoom in so they would be out of focus. That was kind of fun. We really liked that.

Q: What really inspired you to make this film? And how did you get it so right?

Levan Akin: Thank you. The inspiration was very much the aftermath of “And Then We Danced.” It was a conversation of like, you know, “What I was talking about before with this generational conversation?” I just felt like I'd never seen a film in that region from the perspective of an older person. 

Also, while I was shooting, we danced. I was working with some girls who were also in the movie and they suddenly said some words in Turkish. I was like, "Oh, how do you guys know Turkish?" They were like, "We go to Istanbul to work.” I was like, "Oh, okay."

I always wanted to capture a city like Istanbul. I used to go there a lot as a child. We had relatives there. We would go to Georgia and travel to Istanbul. My father was like, "I've been traveling in business and we had some business there." I used to spend time there. It was always a city that fascinated me. It’s a very transient city. It's always changing. It's very difficult to tell. It was very difficult to film in Istanbul because of the nature of the city. And, I also love Turkish music.

That's why I wanted to make this film. There were several things, but the one that was very important to me all along was to involve the community in the filming process. It was not just about having trans people in front of the camera, but also behind the camera.

For instance, our main casting person is a guy called Bulut, who is trans. He knew a lot of the people that are in the film. There were always people on set that were always talking about things. And also very much in the communication that everyone does in front of the camera. My job as a director is as an observer. I like to find specific things that make a scene feel real and lived in. I don't know how it is to actually live in Istanbul. But a lot of my work is just listening — being there observing, and then curating what I see and deciding what to begin with.

Author Steven J. Immerman Goes "In Search of Pleasure Island" And Takes A Dark Journey

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Parent Category: Film and the Arts

Category: Interviews

Published on Thursday, 25 July 2024 14:13

Written by Brad Balfour

In Steve Immerman’s debut novel “In Search of Pleasure Island,” Dr. Mathew Noble, a professor of criminology and retired special warfare agent, journeys across the globe. He’s in search of his kidnapped daughter and the men responsible for her abduction and murder.

Framed for both crimes, Noble is taken into custody by crooked FBI agents, shot and tossed over a cliff into a raging river. Miraculously Noble survives. Now a fugitive, he lives in the shadows while taking on the most important mission of his life. With his elite military training, and the help of his Delta Force teammates, Noble's search takes him back to his hometown of Philadelphia. He then journeys through the backcountry of West Virginia, across the Atlantic, and on to Paris, Milan, and Lake Como. Eventually he arrives at “Pleasure Island” -- an impenetrable fortress off the Tunisian coast in North Africa. From there, further travails ensue. Delving into the bowels of international sex trafficking, "In Search of Pleasure Island" provides an engrossing summer read.

This story is a far cry from growing up in Northern NJ. While studying economics at Temple University in Philadelphia, Immerman joined the Teamsters, working at a local trucking company. After graduation, he moved to NYC and began a career in advertising and print communications. All the while, he made time to travel the globe to places like Tibet, China, Western Europe, and Central America.

While attending NYU’s school of film and television, Immerman developed a love for writing. Eventually, he made his way to Los Angeles where he represented a number of novelists to the film and TV community. Ultimately, though, he was driven to write and “In Search of Pleasure Island” was born.

In order to explain the evolution of the book, Immerman recently conducted this phone interview.

Q: You were representing authors as an agent, or in what capacity — trying to get them film deals and that kind of thing?

Steven J. Immerman: I was sitting in New York in my apartment and a gentleman walked in named Tony Seidl.He’d been representing published authors and was in the publishing for 40 years, andI was heading out to L.A. So he asked if I would help represent some of his authors to the film community, and that's what we did then.

But first of all, I'll tell you,it wasn’t so easy.Back inthe'80s, I began taking classes at NYU school of continuing education in filmed entertainment. I took various screenwriting courses, and at the end, you [were required] to make a completed script. But the idea of writing my own at the time seemed daunting.

Then I met Tony, and so, what the heck? I started representing other authors and it was great. Maybe I'm just a good communicator, but I got to touch base with a lot of high-level producers and heads of production. We sold a few different projects, some to Turner for westerns,some of Warren Murphy's books including “Forever King” and we were peddling his book series “The Destroyer.”

Anyway, that ended. I went back to my real life. Even back then, I wrote some short stories. I always had this love for telling stories, but I didn't love trying to get a screenplay up in Hollywood. I saw what went on. Ultimately, I said that I'm going to write my own stories, and by writing a novel, I can control what it is. There were a few ideas I had. To tell you the truth, the genesis of this book, "In Search of Pleasure Island," came out of two interesting things.

I've always been involved with young people, concerned about abuse, and the whole thing is that the more I understood, it became fascinating in a negative way. Anyway, my imagination started getting the best of me. Then, I started doing some research and reading about Jeffrey Epstein at the time, and one thing led to another. I said, "This is the one I want to write.” Something came to me and this became my first novel.

Q: Your character's a criminology professor, so you have to get into specifics. He's a pretty detail-oriented guy. That must have taken a lot of time so how long was the research?

Steven J. Immerman:It was a lot of research. I based one character “Dutch” on two men that I knew. One was an ex-special warfare operator andamercenary for hire; the other, a former green beret and worked in elite security.That was pretty easy for me because I had known both of these gentlemenprior.The criminology thing absolutely took research.I started doing more and more research about human trafficking and criminology. And this character, Matthew Noble, came about. I have twins, a boy and a girl, who are now in their mid-'20s. So I saw that relationship between father and daughter, and it all came about.

Q: Besides the people you just described, have you met anybody that has been through a trafficking experience, was a trafficker, or anything like that? Did you try to meet someone or did you want to keep a distance and just read things about them?

Steven J. Immerman: This was really done through research, by being organized.For a while, I was a Big Brother at Covenant House.So many kids come from broken homes. They're out on the streets, being hustled by pimps and traffickers. Basically, Covenant House is a refuge. So I got to know, personally, young people. And when I say young, their ages were probably from the 15 to 19 year old range. These kids are on the streets right here in L.A.

Prior to that, when I was in New York, I did work with the Police Athletic League. I spent time there too, and got to see all these young people and their concerns. As a parent, obviously, seeing everythinggoing on, I fear formy own kids and life in general. Maybe it's always been something close in mind for me. When I worked at Covenant House and PAL, I was single, but it's always been something that I've been interested in.Well, not really children, but young people.

Q: Did you find that it flowed naturally and you didn't have to think about all those things?

Steven J. Immerman: It was highly structured.After I wrote my first draft I reached out to my agent Tony Seidl. I showed it to him and he helped me to structure the draft.He really went back and restructuredit.He decided to bring in a buddy who was Dutch,a second partner in it,and reformatted the book. It took a few drafts, and yes, we worked on a structured timeline.

Q: How much balance did you feel you needed to strike between action and exposition?

Steven J. Immerman: That was tough, because what I didn't want to do was only one or the other.I didn’t want just a straight line men’s action book. I also wanted to show the courage of the young woman “Danni” and her struggles as well.I ground out most of my training.I also tried to keep the action, and that really drives the story forward.

Q: When you wrote this, did you see it as a movie? Did you have cinematic ideas along the way and view the scene structures as if there were a camera there.

Steven J. Immerman: It's interesting you say that. I see it in my mind. But if I write as if it were a TV series or movie, that would be hard. I don't know if it would make a good motion picture or not, but I think it would make a great streaming series. There are so many different sections to it. First, there's the development, and the first half is really more of the hunt. The second, the chase. The action gets more and more intense until we have that big scenario. Yes, and then his whole family got into this chaos and this terrible situation. He falls deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole after his wife is killed and his daughter is taken. Then, he's thrown over the cliff and barely survives. Now he must try andsave his daughter.He has a military background and is a criminologist, andyet can't even save his own daughter.

Q: Were you worried about comparisons to the Liam Neeson-led film "Taken?"

Steven J. Immerman: I saw "Taken."This could be "Taken," but I believe there is more in my story; you see it is her journey too --you don't just see it from his perspective. Here, she is taken to the“FARM,”a place where victims are held captive. There, she meets another young girl named Snowand it's their journey just as much. It's very different in that aspect. In "Taken," they quickly established who he was and why they took his daughter, and then, Boom! — it had all the complications, the twists and turns. Whereas in a novel, you have the luxury of being able to really add a lot more in.There's so much about Danni that creates the suspense, like when she is taken to the “FARM.”We see it's almost a rebirth where she's forced out of the womb and becomes a new person.

Here she is this young 16-year-old who grew up adopted from China. She's Eurasian, grows up in privilege, and then her world is snatched away from her. She has tofind andfigure out how she's going to survive. Here she is thrown into this‘hell hole’ I gave her a hint,and she's got to overcome death. She's got to figure out how to live in this new world and survive and succeed. When she does, she finds a way.She meets Snow, and shebecomes a hero. When she saves Snow, they run away. Then, they're caught again and sent over to Europe, and are separated. She's forced into this brothel. She has to survive, and finds a way to survive. She goes through some very traumatic situations. In the end,Noble and Dutch come and rescue her— I hope that’s not a spoiler.Then, the story continues.

Q: When you were writing this, did you have an image of the characters in your mind, like actors or in a graphic novel?

Steven J. Immerman: I've often thought ofjustdoing this as a graphic novel, which, in some ways, is more difficult because you can write the words and not necessarily have an image in mind. Of course, I have images in mind. I see the characters —Danni obviously isa tall, athletic,16/17-year-old girl. There's many 40-some-odd actors who could play Noble. Is it Matt Damon? I had a list of people, actually, that I thought of at one time. Dutch... I don't know if Stallone is the right age at this point, but Dutch is a no-holds-barred, grisly, tough individual. I picture him as,maybe,a combination of the men that I modeled him after --a thick-wristed, bulky, muscular, tough SOB.You know, a warfare operator, ex-commando. Noble is smoother, more educated, but still has that grit — more of an everyman. He could be six-foot but it doesn't matter so much. He's medium build with a nice smile — a good guy.At the same time, he's a surprise. He can be lethal as well, like in the very beginning of the book when he saves the head of Shin Bet’s granddaughter.

In the prologue, that's Noblesaving the granddaughter; that's really what it was. Some people catch it, some don't. That's the granddaughter ofEron Feldner, director of Israel’s Shin Bet.And that's why, later on he gets the help.I say in the book, Feldnernever forgot that Noble saved his grand daughter. He's here to help. And then, he sends Dutch to help.Noble and Dutch have a relationship with each other. That's important, too, because there's a certain chemistry that's built in. Actually, the backstory is that Dutch kicked Noble out of the service because Noble broke command, and that's shown in these dream sequences. They come together and work out their differences, and obviously go together. In that way, it's also different from, say, "Taken."

In terms of marketing, yes, we're putting time in to try to get people to pick it up.I hear from peoplewho have read it and have reached out to me, it's a fun read. It's easy. It's almost like watching a movie or a series. It's not highbrow. It's meant to be enjoyable, but also to deliver a message.

Q: Now that you've got the book out, are you looking to develop a series? Or looking towards seeing this book get into other media, whether as a graphic novel or being produced for a streaming service?

Steven J. Immerman: I'd love to see this story getoutto a wider audience through a streaming service. I don't want to give away a spoiler but yes, there's a sequel. And yes, it involves some of the main characters, of course, moving forward.

Q: Do you feel torn between working on this book as a professional media person, or writing the next book? In other words, are you taking one step? A lot of times, for a filmmaker or a novelist is to get the book out there, it’s also work, doing the tours, all that stuff. Other ones just want to get back down to doing the next book.

Steven J. Immerman: I'm working on a new story as well, a historical novel I call "Return to Zion.” It’s about a Jewish family at the turn of the 19th century, starting at the beginning of the Soviet era. It actually goes back into the Tsarist Empire in the late 1800s, early 1900s. It takes us all the way to the founding of the State of Israel, following this generational family's journey.I also am developing an outline to continue to create the next step in the series of of Pleasure Island.

Q: You're exploring your Jewish background. Is that something you've always done? It’s been in there as to who you are?

Steven J. Immerman: The story I'm working on next comes out of my dad’s stories about his father, my grandfather coming from Russia and my father’s stories he told about World War II.His father passed away when he was very young and he would tell me stories. I come from a Jewish family in Teaneck, New Jersey.

Q: They're from Russia, right?

Steven J. Immerman:Yes. He would tell me stories about his father -- my grandfather and his life in Russia and coming to America.Then there were stories I heard when working with my father. I got into a bit of trouble when I was about 17. My dad took me down to the Union Hall, Teamsters 560 in New Jersey, and said, "You're going to see what life is like." I got into the Teamsters, it paid well,I loaded and unloaded trucks, did whatever wehad to do.

I got to spend time with my dad, aboutfour or five years of working, and it helped me pay for college.I heard a lot of stories about my dad and my history. Iwas learning about Jews coming from Russia, actually Ukraine. My grand father was Georgian, but some of the family was from the Ukraine. I am weaving together a story. I'm working on it now, but I don't want to get too far into that.

To order the book go to: https://nextchapter.pub/authors/steven-immerman